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Post by LeoThunder on Jun 12, 2018 14:08:31 GMT
In the recent thread about new models, the market value of Harley Benton guitars was considered in the following terms: It got me curious because I saw them go for more than that on German ebay. I took some time and collected data on all sold items I could track down with the "advanced search", put it in a table and calculated the seller's net income (after deduction of the 10% ebay fee) as well as the buyer's price (adding shipping cost), both in relation to the Thomann price, which includes shipping within Germany. Out of 121 sold electric guitars and basses, the average seller's income was 61% of the buying price while buyers were willing to spend 74% of same. The bulk of the data cloud is roughly between 40 and 80% (seller's income), as shown in this chart: These results are not different from re-sales of Squier or Epiphones and often better than those of Ibanez guitars. The data in the chart above was sorted by model and no clear correlation with value can be seen. Sales over 80% of the original price were mostly SC's, though: 1 JA-60 OW, 1 MS-60 Vintage White, 2 SC-1000 VB, 2 SC-450 BK, 1 SC-500 WH The curious can see the detailed list here:
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2018 14:50:48 GMT
Sold my TE-90QM for 125 Eur and the SC-450Plus for 100Eur on the 2nd hand market in Denmark! I lost very little
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Post by intenselycalm on Jun 12, 2018 14:59:18 GMT
LeoThunderWOW, great collection of data! I don't know how anyone else thinks when buying an HB (or nearly any other guitar short of a upper lever Fend, Gib, PRS) but I always expect the resale value won't be there as a seller. I hope to get around 50% of original price, your data shows this to be a close estimate. One thing I've noticed on E-bay sales, is the quality and number of photos. If you could post the exact same product twice, once with only a couple average photos, and the second with as many high-quality photos as allowed. The second product will probably sell for more. How much more, not sure? May be hard to track data on that. I greatly appreciate products like the HB lineup, gives me the opportunity to try and fiddle with a number of guitars. Also a great platform to do Frankenstein surgery and experiments. I wouldn't do that to a big brand - typically. I'd guess everyone likes getting a "new" guitar, even if you could save a few dollars getting a used one. Anyone have comments on that, how much would you need to save to choose a used over a new... I guess this data points in the direction of an answer. Thanks for all the work, very interesting!
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Post by salteedog on Jun 12, 2018 15:06:04 GMT
Interesting analysis. I know that would have taken a bit of work so thank you.
I wonder if the HBs hold their value better in Germany than in other locales? Of course that would be a different more extensive analysis.
Also I'd be curious to know if the older ('correct') shaped SCs and DCs command a premium - unfortunately I don't see any in the data set - it's possible the owners are more inclined to hold onto those.
A final comment....some models have increased in price since they first launched. I bought a new HB-35 from Thomann for €149 in late 2015 whereas it is now listed as €179...so that's a 20% increase in list price. The same may be the case for some of the higher end models.
Edit...some of that increase is the €10 'lefty tax' that they started to apply over a year ago.
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1,773 posts
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Post by MartinB on Jun 12, 2018 15:24:16 GMT
Nice bit of work there. Very interesting to see.
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3,968 posts
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Post by salteedog on Jun 12, 2018 15:30:32 GMT
I'd also like to see the ones that are listed at greater than new price.
Also, I do know there are some almost 'holy grail' models that will command greater than original new price. Specifically the lefty flying V and explorer in Gibson correct shape that were discontinued a few years ago. Not a lot of those around and apart from 'Chibson' no good alternatives if you are looking for those shapes. (The modern versions don't cut it at all..as you need the proper droopy headstock).
Other right handed models like the original shape for the Brian May model and the Mosrite type that was out a few years ago ..probably command decent resale. These are older but new enough that they belong to the era where quality wasn't complete rubbish (e.g the post 2013 era)
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2018 17:06:49 GMT
Oh, and let's not forget how many people are snapping up those dekko only instruments, casting their eye over them and then trading them as just second hand.
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Post by blindwilly3fingers on Jun 12, 2018 17:33:58 GMT
I don't know how long HB has been around as a brand? As mentioned in the "how do they do it so cheaply" thread, the new models are more expensive. I do wonder if that trend will continue as HB grows as a brand. This could have a knock on effect on future 2nd hand prices.
It depends how far Thomann wants to take the brand? If the build quality and QC continue to improve it could possibly become a major brand. People I know with guitars who own Fender, PRS, Gibson are shocked at my TE70BP, they have trouble believing it's cost was under £400. You can look on line at guitars but until you actually hold a HB it is quite unbelievable the bang for buck. As more people start to find out about HB I think they will become more popular. If you walk into a guitar shop you can see the cheap brands all costing more and inferior to HB. I honestly think if QC is right HB can become a more reputable brand if Thomann play their cards right.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2018 17:52:25 GMT
I have read so many times people selling their Martin, Fender, Ginson, PRS guitars after trying out a Harley Benton and then buying some more Harley Bentons of course! If you get a keeper HB then its a keeper for life! There is no money that can buy my TE-70BP and ST-62MN (both modded to utter perfection) ! They are mine and only mine
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Post by LeoThunder on Jun 12, 2018 17:52:25 GMT
I wonder if the HBs hold their value better in Germany than in other locales? … Also I'd be curious to know if the older ('correct') shaped SCs and DCs command a premium - unfortunately I don't see any in the data set - it's possible the owners are more inclined to hold onto those. A final comment....some models have increased in price since they first launched. Once the name is established as known and trusted, which is happening thanks to Youtube, Harley Bentons ought to keep value slightly better abroad due to shipping cost and delay. If people in the US or anywhere "oversees" get together to order 3 guitars at once, they can see a local purchase as advantageous and faster. Germans, on the other hand, relinquish Thomann's unproblematic free return policy when they buy a used guitar from someone on ebay. I know that policy is extended to most of Europe but it's not in the terms of sales and customers abroad might not know it or trust in mere hearsay. Price increases will of course be reflected in the 2nd hand market but there have also been examples of lowered prices, so that cuts both ways. The ST-70 RW went down from 149€ to 129€ recently. The ebay data doesn't go all that far back (3 months), there weren't that many DC models to see but I remember seeing a discontinued SC-450 P90 Copper go for a few € over its original price. Its Gold equivalent, on the other hand, is back at an increased 149€ from 129€. Dammit! All this, of course, is fully dependent on the value of the name. I never see any Jack & Danny (the MusicStore.de brand, Thomann's competitor in Köln) sell used on ebay. People buy them new and are stuck with them.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2018 17:54:26 GMT
Jack and Danny is JUST a housebrand! HB is A BRAND now (I never thought I was to become a brand snob )
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Post by kodiakblair on Jun 12, 2018 18:12:38 GMT
Too much work go through the ebay data.My experience of buying/selling HB's follows
PB-20 bought deko for £20, did a set up and later sold for £30. B-stock PJ HTR 4 £60, sold for £60. PB-50 bought for £76,sold for £76. Fretted bass uke bought for £100, sold for £60. Fretless bass uke bought deko for £30, sold for £60. RB414 bought used £150, sold £150. deko JB-75 bought £35,sold £65. HB 60 VW bought £160,sold £150. BZ 4000 bought £214,sold £180.
Spent £845. Sold for £801. Call it a loss of 5%,that's much smaller than the hit I've took on any other new bass.
Of course I've never sold on ebay, only bass sites. Selling any new gear you should expect to take a 20% and Harley Bentons are no different.
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3,968 posts
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Post by salteedog on Jun 12, 2018 18:21:22 GMT
I wonder if the HBs hold their value better in Germany than in other locales? … Also I'd be curious to know if the older ('correct') shaped SCs and DCs command a premium - unfortunately I don't see any in the data set - it's possible the owners are more inclined to hold onto those. A final comment....some models have increased in price since they first launched. Once the name is established as known and trusted, which is happening thanks to Youtube, Harley Bentons ought to keep value slightly better abroad due to shipping cost and delay. If people in the US or anywhere "oversees" get together to order 3 guitars at once, they can see a local purchase as advantageous and faster. Germans, on the other hand, relinquish Thomann's unproblematic free return policy when they buy a used guitar from someone on ebay. I know that policy is extended to most of Europe but it's not in the terms of sales and customers abroad might not know it or trust in mere hearsay. Price increases will of course be reflected in the 2nd hand market but there have also been examples of lowered prices, so that cuts both ways. The ST-70 RW went down from 149€ to 129€ recently. The ebay data doesn't go all that far back (3 months), there weren't that many DC models to see but I remember seeing a discontinued SC-450 P90 Copper go for a few € over its original price. Its Gold equivalent, on the other hand, is back at an increased 149€ from 129€. Dammit! All this, of course, is fully dependent on the value of the name. I never see any Jack & Danny (the MusicStore.de brand, Thomann's competitor in Köln) sell used on ebay. People buy them new and are stuck with them. Good analysis.
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