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Post by blindwilly3fingers on Jun 24, 2019 18:51:08 GMT
On my epiphone les paul, it has 650R neck and 700T bridge humbuckers that are supposedly good pups. I found if have the guitar volume full it was (never sure what words to use) sort harsh/coarse but if you rolled the volume back it became mud and muddier. With the treble bleed fitted it has more clarity/smoothness. Like Kaplow I rarely play full volume I'd say probably 60-75%. I prefer to set the amps master volume higher than required and use the guitar volume as Kaplow says, it gives me what I feel is more control and a fuller sound. If that makes sense?
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Post by blindwilly3fingers on Jun 24, 2019 19:09:51 GMT
DefJef I also fitted a treble bleed to my squier strat that I fitted a humbuckers size P90 and two alnico five single coils. Dear old Vincent did tell to just change the pots and the original squier ceramic pups would be OK. But I changed the lot and while it was better again it got muddy when I rolled back the volume. The treble bleed seems to clean it up.
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Post by Kaplow on Jun 24, 2019 19:58:55 GMT
Here's the best I can do. Just a quick sample of the results. I know I'm not the greatest player out there but I think this is a good example of the tone difference. The setup is the exact same in every way except the treble mod. Without Treble Bleed ModWith Treble Bleed ModVolume half way Neck Pickup Tone all the way up Orange Amp No effects
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DefJef
THBC Moderator
Due to musical differences I've decided I can't work with myself any more.
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Post by DefJef on Jun 24, 2019 20:55:44 GMT
On my epiphone les paul, it has 650R neck and 700T bridge humbuckers that are supposedly good pups. I found if have the guitar volume full it was (never sure what words to use) sort harsh/coarse but if you rolled the volume back it became mud and muddier. With the treble bleed fitted it has more clarity/smoothness. Like Kaplow I rarely play full volume I'd say probably 60-75%. I prefer to set the amps master volume higher than required and use the guitar volume as Kaplow says, it gives me what I feel is more control and a fuller sound. If that makes sense? So what you're finding is that there is a new, third sound with the treble bleed that isn't as bright as fully open volume but not muddy either? Interesting. This might rescue my humbucker guitars. None of which I find particularly enjoyable.
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DefJef
THBC Moderator
Due to musical differences I've decided I can't work with myself any more.
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Post by DefJef on Jun 24, 2019 20:58:24 GMT
Here's the best I can do. Just a quick sample of the results. I know I'm not the greatest player out there but I think this is a good example of the tone difference. The setup is the exact same in every way except the treble mod. Without Treble Bleed ModWith Treble Bleed ModVolume half way Neck Pickup Tone all the way up Orange Amp No effects Yep, totally different. Just to drill down a bit further. Any idea what value pots you have? 500K? Audio taper?
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Post by blindwilly3fingers on Jun 24, 2019 21:29:03 GMT
I just found this diagram. Interesting what it says about swells. Do you guys that have treble bleeds find this to be the case? Sort of evening out that audio taper? Could be reason enough to do it. I have linear pots for vol and audio for tone, so my results may differ from Kaplow. I prefer the pots this way as I find the taper is more even. But it's down to personal taste. I believe some manufacturer's use b pots for vol and a pots for tone. I've seen videos and read stuff where people swear by either way. It's a bit like capacitor values some say 0.022 for a humbuckers and 0.047 for single coils. I don't follow what's supposedly right or wrong I just mess about until I find what I like. What I will say is the treble bleed definitely made my epiphone humbuckers sound better. I can't make my mind up as yet if I need to do this with my HB 550sc.
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Post by LeoThunder on Jun 25, 2019 9:23:51 GMT
I just found this diagram. Interesting what it says about swells. Do you guys that have treble bleeds find this to be the case? Sort of evening out that audio taper? Could be reason enough to do it. All treble bleed circuits affect the way the volume pot works since they basically short the part of the pot that is rolled off. The "simple" variant is the most drastic and I honestly don't understand how the "Duncan" variant is all that different. As soon as you have AC current, and that's when the frequency is greater than 0, so even below the audible limit of 20Hz, that extra resistance in parallel to the capacitor should be as good as absent. Yes, I know, I should put equations down, but it's been over 30 years since I did that. I'll have to look it up. The variant above places a fixed value in parallel to the rolled off part (130K here) so that's a different behaviour.
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Post by LeoThunder on Jun 25, 2019 9:25:28 GMT
Here's the best I can do. Just a quick sample of the results. I know I'm not the greatest player out there but I think this is a good example of the tone difference. The setup is the exact same in every way except the treble mod. Without Treble Bleed ModWith Treble Bleed ModVolume half way Neck Pickup Tone all the way up Orange Amp No effects This is a very significant difference. Is there any at full volume?
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DefJef
THBC Moderator
Due to musical differences I've decided I can't work with myself any more.
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Post by DefJef on Jun 25, 2019 10:14:00 GMT
As far as I can make out that diagram I posted seems to match the Kinman one in blindwilly3fingers video link. I don't think I would really go with anything but the Kinman if I were to do it. Does anything about it explain a change in the swell characteristic that the diagram mentions though? Or is it just that people without a treble bleed experience that top end of the volume knob's arrival of treble as a sudden leap in volume when it is actually just more treble? Or is 'just more treble' also 'loads more signal' and therefore is rightly being described as a leap in volume? In other words (if my own words are simply confusing the issue) IS there an actual swell change? Is the volume rise smoother with a treble bleed or just a smoother tonal characteristic? Or maybe by 'swell characteristic' the diagram doesn't mean a change in the way the volume increases/decreases, just the way the treble responds? The way it's written does seem like a warning though. If they just mean 'the way the tone is affected will change' seems to be odd as that is why folks want to put a treble bleed in in the first place and doesn't need a warning. Maybe we can just all say that if it sounds like a smoother swell then who cares? Our ears being maybe more important than an oscilloscope or a spectrometer.
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Post by blindwilly3fingers on Jun 25, 2019 11:17:24 GMT
DefJef as I have said many times before I really don't know what words to use. Dirt, mud, dark? All I can say from my experience is with a treble bleed and a linear pot for volume. I get an even reduction of volume the tone stays the same, the tone pot/nob is the only thing that affects the tone. I made up half a dozen treble bleeds, some parallel some series and tried just capacitors on their own. Obviously what pots, wiring, pups etc all are part of the circuit its a matter of finding what works for you. I read somewhere, can't remember where but it said "if you don't like the sound, tweak the circuit". I think it's well worth anybody who has pups they don't like to first look at the other parts of the circuit wiring, pots, caps and maybe a treble bleed mod. I have the treble bleed in parallel in my LP and series in my strat with the P90. They were 0.001, 0.0015, 0.0022 caps and either 120k or 150k resistor. I will check my caps box later to confirm this. I can't rember what value ones I used and the remaining ones were swiftly purloined by my so called friends! I can pop the back cover off the LP if you want to know what I used on the humbuckers?
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Post by LeoThunder on Jun 25, 2019 11:47:33 GMT
As far as I can make out that diagram I posted seems to match the Kinman one in blindwilly3fingers video link. I don't think I would really go with anything but the Kinman if I were to do it. Does anything about it explain a change in the swell characteristic that the diagram mentions though? Or maybe by 'swell characteristic' the diagram doesn't mean a change in the way the volume increases/decreases, just the way the treble responds? The diagram does not explain the swell issue. Analysing the circuit does, I knew it would the moment I saw it, and it is only about how the volume changes when turning the pot. You no longer have a linear or logarithmic pot but something twisted by the presence of the treble bleed. All three variants bring their own twist, of course. The simple variant cancels the rolled off volume resistance and behaves as if the total value of the pot were reduced, so the volume does not decrease as fast at it would without. Duncan does the same at high frequencies but merely reduces the rolled off resistance at lower ones, so the slowing down of the volume change when rolled off is not as drastic. Kinman does basically the same in this regard. The twisting depends on the relation between the added resistance and that of the volume pot itself, of course. The higher the added resistance, the lesser the impact. As to the tonal changes, I found a nice picture showing the various options: "Simple" and "Duncan" are the extremes but we see "Duncan" generates a higher output level at low frequencies. It does that by reducing the rolled off resistance, therefore reducing the volume reduction. Kinman builds a middle approach by being in series with the capacitor, so highs don't get as high and lows are left untouched. The picture also shows the 50s wiring as a more subtle and narrower boost of the high frequencies while generating a lesser output volume for most of the spectrum. I found this together with a nice article, the conclusion of which I quote here:
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Post by blindwilly3fingers on Jun 25, 2019 12:06:22 GMT
I only posted the breja tone works video as it gives a good clear example of the wiring diagram. While it may not have all the bells and whistles like all of his videos they show good easy to follow wiring diagrams. Anyone looking for a wiring diagram could do worse than check out his diagrams.
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