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Post by neno on Sept 5, 2019 21:00:07 GMT
Hi all, Can't decide which to buy. I know that probably to buy both would be the best , but need to decide only for one. ST57DG has alder body, one piece maple neck, SK52 Roswell pickups. ST62MN has basswood body, maple neck with maple fretboard laminated, STA Roswell pickups. Wonder if someone compared both? Does ST57DG has more resonance/sustain because of alder body and one piece neck? Does SK52 pickups sound thin with not enough mids (hard to cut through mix) comparing to STA (SK52 are vintage and have lower output)? All opinions are welcome. Thank you. Regards Neno
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3,457 posts
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Post by LeoThunder on Sept 6, 2019 0:34:33 GMT
I don't like black guitars (not true, but never mind). I don't believe wood has any magic making the result all that different. Sound comes from the strings, pick-ups and amplifier. You won't hear real guitar players talk about wood, only guitar sellers. Ask yourself why. I never noticed the ST-57 had different pick-ups but John Robson demoed both models so you could check that out. In any case, there is no such thing as pick-ups "too thin" or "too weak". This was a concern in the 1960s when amps with poor EQ possibilities had to be driven by the signal of the guitar alone but modern ones already come with the gain stages required to make anything sound like anything you want. Much of the talk about pick-ups being "too this" or "not enough that" comes from people who make a living from reviewing things for people who don't know how to turn knobs.
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3,457 posts
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Post by LeoThunder on Sept 6, 2019 7:18:52 GMT
ST57DG has alder body, one piece maple neck, SK52 Roswell pickups. ST62MN has basswood body, maple neck with maple fretboard laminated, STA Roswell pickups. A closer look at the product pictures shows a different texture for fingerboard and the rest of the neck on the ST-57. This is a two piece neck with a skunk stripe for looks only.
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Post by LeoThunder on Sept 6, 2019 9:32:53 GMT
It's not just knob twiddling that will get the sound you want out of your pickups. That's right, they will always have some character of their own but I was reacting to the various "can't do" myths and fears. All the "will it cut through the mix", "can I play metal with that" or "you need higher output to drive that thing" (well, get a booster then, unless there are already half a dozen on that pedal board and most likely a big fat gain stage in the amp itself). The one thing pick-ups can't be brought to do in post processing is clarity. If high end is missing at the source, that limit will remain or the output will be drowned in noise. Bass, mid range and output levels have long stopped being issues. At worst, Behringer sells an equaliser pedal for 21€. As to the skunk stripe, I would be very surprised if they did use it. They most likely just route the required space to put it in and install the truss rod the same way they do on the cheaper models.
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DefJef
THBC Moderator
Due to musical differences I've decided I can't work with myself any more.
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Post by DefJef on Sept 6, 2019 9:56:38 GMT
Actually what I just posted gave me a thought and may be an ideal challenge for LeoThunder if you want to take it up Leo (I won't think any less of you if you don't want to. If it's too much of a chore, uninteresting to you or you just think 'why me?'). Are there any videos or articles online that take a 'bad' pickup and show, scientifically how they can make it excellent? What I mean by that is, do they examine its characteristics with an oscilloscope, see what the problem is, a certain frequency spike or something, and then, using their knowledge of the characteristics of pots and caps, tame it into something more user friendly? I'm sure there must be. Or if there isn't there should be! We can all agree (I think) that a pickup is now a very old concept, well understood (by some ) and really made up of a few very simple components. No magic or voodoo going on in there just a good or bad balance of things. You are a master of tracking down this kind of thing Leo. Maybe you already know of such a video or set of videos. It could be very interesting if it isn't so complex that I and many others just glaze over. This guy does a few things but doesn't explain empirically what was wrong with the sound of that ceramic magnet in the first place, nor why slipping in those alnico ones will instantly make it better, nor illustrate that it does. It's interesting for all that to see how easy it would be to do but isn't the sort of in depth explanation I'm looking for. I already have that bad sounding strat with alnico magnets in it. It wasn't the solution. Far too often there seems to be so much trial and error or simply just ripping out and replacing of pickups based on someone else's experience through their own equipment by people who don't know about these characteristics and what to do about them. I include myself in this ignorance but don't have the sort of money that allows me to 'just chuck some Texas Specials in there' when all I needed to use was under £10 of components. Sure there are pickup manufacturers who will even publish an oscilloscope readout of a certain pickup's response, even Roswell will show a sort of simplified response histogram, but surely once we know a pickup's characteristic there is a lot of very cheap things we can do about it - taking out of the equation the need to stock a laboratory with an oscilloscope and signal generator and goodness knows what other gubbins. Maybe that simply illustrates my ignorance of the whole thing and any pickup maker will tell me 'no way, a bad pickup will always be a bad pickup'? If so, I'm not proud. I can accept that I'm ignorant and want to learn. If we do it let's do it on a separate thread so as not to hijack this one. I'm worse for that than Sudanese pirates.
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DefJef
THBC Moderator
Due to musical differences I've decided I can't work with myself any more.
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Post by DefJef on Sept 6, 2019 9:59:25 GMT
As to the skunk stripe, I would be very surprised if they did use it. They most likely just route the required space to put it in and install the truss rod the same way they do on the cheaper models. I would have thought so too. Changing processes in factories is not a cost saving affair and adding unnecessary ones certainly isn't yet I have a cheaper than £60 Stagg tele with a skunk stripe so it can't be all that costly . I'd love to know though. Another video challenge? Chinese factory shots?
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Post by LeoThunder on Sept 6, 2019 11:23:37 GMT
Actually what I just posted gave me a thought and may be an ideal challenge for LeoThunder if you want to take it up Leo (I won't think any less of you if you don't want to. If it's too much of a chore, uninteresting to you or you just think 'why me?'). Are there any videos or articles online that take a 'bad' pickup and show, scientifically how they can make it excellent? What I mean by that is, do they examine its characteristics with an oscilloscope, see what the problem is, a certain frequency spike or something, and then, using their knowledge of the characteristics of pots and caps, tame it into something more user friendly? I'm sure there must be. Or if there isn't there should be! I haven't found such a video yet but the quest is more difficult than that. I haven't found what "a bad pick-up" is yet. The Internet is full of people fantasising about or selling "better" pick-ups but no one ever says what can be objectively bad. They don't because truly bad pick-ups no longer exist and those that still do are now protected under the haze of legend. I can recall seeing a video of someone playing Brian Jones' 1964 Vox: The thing sounds horrible. It has that gnarly duck sound that poor, limited pick-ups only can bring but the guys making the video were having a nerdgasm for playing Brian Jones' guitar and calling it wonderful. If it had been that good, he wouldn't have given it away. He seems to have discarded it like a pair of outdated socks. I suppose many of these vintage Japanese guitars from the 60 and their department store successors of the 70s fall into that same category: They all sound like imprecise, yellowed photographs. I guess there are worse pick-ups than this, with even less high end. I have heard Gibsons I wouldn't play for a minute. On the other side of the spectrum, there are edgier, harsher sounding pick-ups which I actually think are good because they can be equalised down to taste. Then comes the whole "quality is bad" fringe, by whom clarity is perceived as "cold" and dullness as "warmth". And yet a brand like Ibanez has made it to the top with such "bad pick-ups", simply because they were better suited to the music people played with them (or simply offering a broader frequency range to those with EQ skills and tools). So they were effectively better, no matter what Les Paul fans wanted to call them. The diplomatic part of the talking crowd calls them "modern" and the rest, limited and coloured, is safely placed under the patronage of ST Vintage. I know I'm not answering the original query but I suspect that's because there are actually no bad pick-ups, flaws of the past being worshipped. I did see one video by Will's Easy Guitar in which he was demagnetising pick-ups to make them softer. I think they were AlNiCo and that wouldn't work with ceramic. I can't find that video any more. This is like replacing a single malt with another. Your taste isn't mine and isn't his. I do remember some Tamnavulin I didn't like at all, harsh and bitter. But it was in 1988 and it had been left in the cold for Christmas. All others (there have been dozens) were nice enough, although some were a little bland and while I still remember a Linkwood and a 15 year old Mortlach to die for, I wouldn't call any of them bad. Even that French whisky I have isn't bad. Yes, a whisky made in Champagne-Ardennes in France - I'm having one now so I can show it: (the things I do for you guys…)
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DefJef
THBC Moderator
Due to musical differences I've decided I can't work with myself any more.
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Post by DefJef on Sept 6, 2019 13:11:45 GMT
Yep, all this is correct. I sure don't like my strat's pickups but they may be ideal for somebody else...or even for some kind of music that I don't think I want to play. This brings me back to everything having its place really and just finding a use for it. There's hardly any point in me owning a whole load of guitars that I've tweaked so they all sound as close to each other as possible to play a limited palette of sounds suitable for a similarly limited range of music. I'm tempted to keep my strat as it is for just when such a thin and unpleasant sound is needed. It's a luxury to have such a spare guitar in standby though and I can perfectly understand anyone with just a couple of instruments to need them to be as versatile as possible or at least capable of being most suited to playing the music that they want to play the most often. I like the luxury though; an excuse to keep as many instruments as possible because they sound different. Don't anyone DARE tell anyone in my family that there is such a thing as a 10 band EQ pedal to remove the need. Oh and I'm very sorry that may posts are now driving you to daytime drinking LeoThunder .
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Post by LeoThunder on Sept 6, 2019 13:32:03 GMT
This brings me back to everything having its place really and just finding a use for it. There's hardly any point in me owning a whole load of guitars that I've tweaked so they all sound as close to each other as possible to play a limited palette of sounds suitable for a similarly limited range of music. I'm tempted to keep my strat as it is for just when such a thin and unpleasant sound is needed. It's a luxury to have such a spare guitar in standby though and I can perfectly understand anyone with just a couple of instruments to need them to be as versatile as possible or at least capable of being most suited to playing the music that they want to play the most often. I think that's the point. Get something with a flat frequency response and you can use it for anything together with the proper filter. It's like having white walls and putting coloured filters on lamps for the desired ambience. This is what a professional musician would want: pay for one, carry one, play anything you get paid for. Objectively the better tool.
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DefJef
THBC Moderator
Due to musical differences I've decided I can't work with myself any more.
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Post by DefJef on Sept 6, 2019 14:17:51 GMT
But we must keep this information away from our families LeoThunder . They are always looking for any chink in our armour. > > > > > > > > > > > > > However, I am thinking it may be a good argument for defending the perpetual buying of effects and amps, "I need to make my guitars as versatile as possible so I won't need to buy any more guitars." They might, with a little, luck fall for that and not notice the flaw.
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Post by neno on Sept 6, 2019 14:20:18 GMT
I don't believe wood has any magic making the result all that different. Sound comes from the strings, pick-ups and amplifier. You won't hear real guitar players talk about wood, only guitar sellers. Ask yourself why. I never noticed the ST-57 had different pick-ups but John Robson demoed both models so you could check that out. In any case, there is no such thing as pick-ups "too thin" or "too weak". This was a concern in the 1960s when amps with poor EQ possibilities had to be driven by the signal of the guitar alone but modern ones already come with the gain stages required to make anything sound like anything you want. Much of the talk about pick-ups being "too this" or "not enough that" comes from people who make a living from reviewing things for people who don't know how to turn knobs. A closer look at the product pictures shows a different texture for fingerboard and the rest of the neck on the ST-57. This is a two piece neck with a skunk stripe for looks only. Thank you Leo Thunder! I am closer to ST62MN now.
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Post by LeoThunder on Sept 6, 2019 14:26:58 GMT
Does SK52 pickups sound thin with not enough mids (hard to cut through mix) comparing to STA (SK52 are vintage and have lower output)? Back on topic. The Roswell site gives details on both trios of pick-ups: SK52: "The SK52N (Neck) pickup was designed with the vintage tone purist in mind. Reverse engineered from a '63 vintage Strat®, these pickups deliver almost the identical tone as the original Strat itself. These pickups have a slightly taller bobbin that the original spec pickup which aids in delivering long sustain and a nice mid & low range. Ideal when used with SK52M and SK52B for a calibrated/balanced single coil set. Features staggered, beveled edge Alnico 5 magnetic poles and urethane coated wire." STA: "The STA-N is our most popular single coil neck position pickup. A perfect choice to be used in conjunction with the STA-M and STA-B for a balanced single coil trio. Although it’s a high output single coil pickup, it doesn’t sacrifice any true single-coil tone. It yields a warm tone with a dynamic bottom and mid-range, and just enough treble to round the tone off without being too bright. The staggered Alnico 5 pole pieces coupled with 42 AWG poly coated wire offer a stronger and deeper magnetic field. Additional coil windings provide extra power, making this pickup great for a variety of music styles." There is more output in the STA but the response looks similar (neck comes first for SK52, last for STA in the pictures below): The ST-57 does what it can to be "vintage", apart from the fingerboard radius. I see it has no split shaft tuners, which is a shame.
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Post by LeoThunder on Sept 6, 2019 14:37:41 GMT
I am closer to ST62MN now. I would find it difficult to spend that extra money on a black pickguard, knobs and pick-up covers, a decorative skunk-stripe, "vintage" pick-ups and an Alder body. The plastic stuff (pickguard, knobs, covers) can be bought for a fraction of the difference from Chinese ebay sellers if that matters. Yes, Alder is likely more resistant than Basswood, people say the latter dents easily when banged against things. It will likely be heavier. The regular Basswood ST-62 weighs 3.6 Kg. The real question is that of the pick-ups. John Robson's video ought to help quite a bit with this.
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thunderbird
Harley Benton Expert
Less purchase, more practice
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Post by thunderbird on Sept 7, 2019 3:13:34 GMT
I don't believe wood has any magic making the result all that different. Sound comes from the strings, pick-ups and amplifier. You won't hear real guitar players talk about wood, only guitar sellers. Ask yourself why. I never noticed the ST-57 had different pick-ups but John Robson demoed both models so you could check that out. In any case, there is no such thing as pick-ups "too thin" or "too weak". This was a concern in the 1960s when amps with poor EQ possibilities had to be driven by the signal of the guitar alone but modern ones already come with the gain stages required to make anything sound like anything you want. Much of the talk about pick-ups being "too this" or "not enough that" comes from people who make a living from reviewing things for people who don't know how to turn knobs. A closer look at the product pictures shows a different texture for fingerboard and the rest of the neck on the ST-57. This is a two piece neck with a skunk stripe for looks only. Thank you Leo Thunder! I am closer to ST62MN now. Hi neno, my ST57 has a one piece neck and a real "skunk stripe". Admittedly it is one of the older MiC models, so things may have changed in the move (they did move, right?). Whichever one you decide on, good luck
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