572 posts
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Post by Djangle on Jun 19, 2018 20:41:41 GMT
Hi Folks needing some advice on repairing (or not) my 2002 Art n Lutherie Cedar dreadnought. The action at the 12th fret is nearly 4mm and at the last fret just over 4mm. I had the saddle shaved by a tech when I bought it second hand about 8 years ago and he managed to get the action down to just under 3mm. The problem is due to bridge hump and because the saddle has been shaved (maybe more than once) there doesn't look like there is much saddle left. From the pictures does anyone think there's another shave left in the saddle? The idea of removing the bridge has crossed my mind and shave that instead but not sure if that's wise. It's been a great sounding box but the action is making it a PINFA playing anything above the 5th fret so any advice is welcome.    Cheers |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2018 22:09:27 GMT
Yes you can shave more of that bridge and no way I could play with that high action  Shaver out sais I and chop that bridge down some more!  |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2018 22:13:45 GMT
Checked the neck bow Djangle? Is it flat or severely bowed? Is there a truss rod to tighten? How's the action at the nut end? Is the top of the the guitar bellying out or pretty flat? Is the heel joint still nice and solid? |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2018 22:14:01 GMT
I would shave off some wood from that bridge too. The side closer to the sound hole! I would shave it so it angled/sloped, giving more room for the strings, to avoid string buzz once you shave the saddle some more.
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Post by blindwilly3fingers on Jun 20, 2018 8:19:00 GMT
There is a video on youtube, I can't remember who it's by but the front of the bridge is lowered. This enables the strings to clear the bridge after the saddle has been shaved down. I think the guy uses a dremel type sanding thing to mod the bridge.
Amendment
Brian Ealy on youtube video using dremel sander.
There are also videos showing sanding whole top of bridge with either a sander or mini plane.
Hopefully one way will work for you.
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572 posts
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Post by Djangle on Jun 20, 2018 20:34:26 GMT
Neck relief, heel joint and tusq nut end fine except for the high E slot which needs raised a touch. I can't see hump at the back of the bridge but I can feel it and running a straight edge along the top shows its there. I've just watched the video Blind Willy mentions where the guy used a mini plane or sander to shave the bridge and as I don't have a dremel think I'll give this method a bash. The bridge top is curved shaped so want to keep it like this and not shave it flat so will try and follow curve. Im still trying to figure out how much to shave from the bridge before shaving what needs to come off saddle. As I sad the current action is 4mm at 12th fret and Ideally want around 2mm.
Does this mean I need to remove 4mm from saddle if so think I'm f@&£ked.
And how much material do I need to remove from bridge? Seems an excessive amount and the videos are pretty vague about how much to remove on the bridge.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2018 21:13:43 GMT
Seems odd that the action is rising if the relief isn't changing. As far as material to remove it is normally double at the bridge for the distance you want to lower at the 12th.
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572 posts
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Post by Djangle on Jun 20, 2018 21:48:54 GMT
@defjef Neck relief is fine when I check with capo on 1st fret/ finger on last/ tap at 7th or when you say relief do you mean the whole neck needing reset? If the latter then yes the neck is bowing forward due to age/tension over the years. The bridge and saddle shave was an attempt to avert a neck reset as I wouldn't bother attempting that or getting it done by a luthier. I paid £90 second hand years ago and fine guitar as it is/was it ain't a Martin though it is made in Canada from 95% Canadian wood from fallen trees  |
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572 posts
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Post by Djangle on Jun 20, 2018 21:57:57 GMT
So by dropping the action at 12th fret by 2mm means taking off 4mm at saddle and bridge......that would leave a bridge depth if around 3 or 4 mm . That's pretty thin.  |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2018 22:38:12 GMT
OK. Gotcha now Djangle . So this neck is straight but needs a reset. Looking at your pic the bridge does look as though it is quite thick so will take a shaving. You have little choice without resetting the neck as your saddle will end up giving no break angle to the strings without shaving it down (your top E already has very little break angle). Trouble is, if you shave the bridge down the slot for the saddle can end up too shallow leading to the saddle tilting forward or toppling altogether. If that happens you need to rout the saddle slot deeper. Tricky decision to make. |
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Post by blindwilly3fingers on Jun 21, 2018 10:00:45 GMT
If you rout/sand but leave a bit of meat at the ends that should stop the saddle tilting as defjef said. When I shaved the saddle on my D120 I took 1mm off its probably still a little high but more playable.
Not trying to teach you to suck eggs, but I would tape up the body by the bridge and use a metal shim in front of the bridge at the desired height to act as a stop for the dremel. The sanding drums on a dremel are quite fierce and can strip a lot of material.
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Post by blindwilly3fingers on Jun 21, 2018 10:06:08 GMT
sorry misread your post thought you was going to use the dremel method.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2018 10:30:50 GMT
If you rout/sand but leave a bit of meat at the ends that should stop the saddle tilting as defjef said. When I shaved the saddle on my D120 I took 1mm off its probably still a little high but more playable. Not trying to teach you to suck eggs, but I would tape up the body by the bridge and use a metal shim in front of the bridge at the desired height to act as a stop for the dremel. The sanding drums on a dremel are quite fierce and can strip a lot of material. Good tip to leave a bit of meat at the ends to help support the saddle. Assuming the look is not an issue. I guess, in cross section your bridge would end up this shape.  Not too bad and better than the alternatives: reset the neck, play it as it is or junk it! |
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Post by Vincent on Jun 21, 2018 11:44:00 GMT
Stop. Recap: You want to lose 2mm string height above the 12th fret. The table is currently not showing excessive lift at the bridge area. One method would be to lower the overall saddle height by 4mm. The saddle looks like it is sitting very low in the bridge slot already so not much wiggle room there. To the bridge (aye aye captain). I have a similar guitar made by the parent company Godin. The tallest area at the front and middle of the bridge from the table is 6.5mm. Where the saddle-ends are I am getting 5.4mm. If you were to remove 4mm of material here there would not be much of the bridge left. You would weaken the structure severely and the bridge and table would rise and you are back to or worse than where you were when you started. Resetting the neck: Is your neck bolted on? philsguitarprojects.weebly.com/art--lutherie-repairs |
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572 posts
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Post by Djangle on Jun 21, 2018 18:08:00 GMT
That bridge fix method where there's some meat at the ends to support the saddle is a fine idea. I have a palm router I use at work so when I have the time will make some jigs to cut away some of the bridge and another to go deeper in the saddle slot. Hopefully I can source a router bit that matches the saddle slot size. Vincent pointed out I may weaken the structure and there's every chance that could happen but I'm willing to take the risk as even 3mm at the 12th was bugging me however 2.5mm could be a compromise. At the end of the day I'd be sad to let it go and If it fails I lose £90 however this would leave an empty space in my guitar rack that would need filled at some point.  Thanks for the tips fellas Vincent it's a dovetail neck joint. |
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