34 posts
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Post by mitchmacblues on Dec 10, 2019 16:44:48 GMT
Hi everybody, I just want to share my recent experiences with HB SC450s and ask your opinion about this year's batch. I like my 2017 HB SC 450 Vintage Plus Honeyburst (with Wilkinsons) so much that I haven't done it any modifications and wanted to try to buy some other variations of the SC 450 and eventually experiment with other components.
Today I went to see a 2019 SC450 P90 gold top second hand, at an attractive price. It was tempting due to the rave reviews on the P90s and my positive experience with Harley Benton (absolutely amazing TE52 and SC450 Vintage Plus, nice CST24 and D120). The seller was very honest in telling me that the fretboard was cheap. Indeed it was, with several dead frets up high in the first string and many buzzing points. Too much work to fix it, so I turned it down. With HBs, especially the budget series, you know it can happen, and the feeling of the fretboard is key. Pickups, tuners and nuts can be changed. But a fret job is a pain. The guitar just didn't feel right. It was a lemon, as can happen at this price range.
This comes after receiving another guitar which I bought in September - in this case a 2019 SC 450 CB Classic Series. The fretwork was surprisingly good, but I received the guitar with the pickup switch broken (and very microphonic pickups -but I intended to change them anyway). Furthermore, the wood had very ugly, big and visible stains (how come, when I understand it is a veneer?) and the color was different from what I expected. I had to make my first return of a guitar to Thomann. With a much more complicated and lengthier process than I expected, but in the end I got the money back.
I am considering buying another HB SC450 Vintage, which has an attractive Pau Ferro fretboard and would like to know experiences and opinions with this year's HB quality control and alternatives. I guess I will follow the traditional advice of avoiding the budget series below the Vintage Plus, to avoid the need to make a return as much as possible. I'm not that picky and can fix small things, we're talking about guitars with low prices.
I'm also tempted by an archtop HB 35, anything bluesy. I have a pair of nice Japanese Tokai humbuckers waiting to be installed.
Thanks
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2019 20:42:54 GMT
Thanks for posting. I'm watching with interest with similar pertinent inquiry.
Next year sometime I'd like to buy two Harley Bentons, specifically their DC Custom & HB-35Plus, but with an eye upon their spec and QC both meeting my expectation. As you point out, whilst it's no risk for Thomann customers in Germany and nearby EU States, the PITA of returning internationally from a hemisphere away isn't a game I'd ever want to have to play. Whilst I do like my HB SC Custom and my previous buyign experience from Thomann has been positive, HB guitar prices are increasing significantly, and with shipping, taxes and poor currency exchange from my neck of the woods, won't be worth a pig in a poke gamble to me on QC when for just a little more, I can buy more consistently very high build quality well spec'ed guitars made in Indonesia from e.g. Cort and similar manufacturers.
Right now, there is definite room for improvement in order to retain customers outside the no cost easy return envelope if the EU.
I'd rather Thomann stopped with their recently introduced high profile advertising and sponsoring of You Tube 'influencers' to focus upon product quality and QC. If they don't refocus upon core values of solid quality representing value at its price point rather than media spin, they'll be shooting themselves in the foot as a brand as far as I'm concerned. Like you said. Swapping out PUPs or tuners is an easy, moderate cost if annoying exercise that really shouldn't necessary. As for rubbish fretboards or fretwork. They signal no sale to me, and I'm sure many others, which is why I'm waiting and watching to see developments in 2020. Now Rosewood is off the CITES list, I just won't consider buying any guitar with a Blackwood, Roseacer and 'Techwood' fingerboard. Where I see 25% price rises in a year, I want them to be because Thomann have decided to pay more to retain Korean manufactured Wilkinson PUPs in their guitars, not because they're taking out full page ads in media or sponsoring the likes of spoilt obnoxious kids who don't need to be given any more like Filippa Arendt.
Simply put, whilst I won't pay insane Gibson or even inflated Epiphone pricing, (same goes for Fender/Squier) I'd rather pay the modest premium for a Cort, Yamaha, ESP et al than be bothered with a Harley Benton risking substandard BQ and QC with the risk of return and all it entails from here.
Hence instead of buying those two Harley Benton guitars this year, I'm waiting. Instead, I blew the rest of this calendar years' kit budget this month on two new amps, a Blackstar Artist 30 Blonde dual channel combo (ECC83 & 6L6 valve) and Blackstar ID:260TVP modelling combo in an opportunity buy at too good to resist end of model runout prices, the latter having been superseded by pretty much its clone upgraded to V Celestions in a new box touting the Silverline series aesthetic -at an even higher price than its predecessor of course.
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thunderbird
Harley Benton Expert
Less purchase, more practice
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Post by thunderbird on Dec 10, 2019 21:09:19 GMT
the PITA of returning internationally from a hemisphere away isn't a game I'd ever want to have to play. the risk of return and all it entails from here. I've played that game, it's no fun, and a little nerve racking. I haven't bought a Harley Benton since. I did buy a Fender Strat (MiM) from Thomann and was going to buy a Telecaster, but Fender stopped them from selling to AU.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2019 22:57:30 GMT
I don't mind taking a calculated risk, but calculated as in extremely low probability being sentient.
Yer, know all about the Fender Thomann export ban on their brand BS thunderbird. Implemented about a week after I bought two Fender amps (on that same invoice/order as the HB SC Custom) in July 2018. Lucky or what?!!! Perhaps that was what triggered it? And who could blame me? i.e. My Fender Champion 100 2x12 from Thomann landed here inc taxes and shipping at the time for under AUD$350. The very best online street price I could obtain in AU at that time inc shipping was double that at a whopping AUD$699! ***!!! Just sooooo tired of being single import distro price gouged here in AU. There is absolutely no justification for it other than 'they can' if dummies will put up with it. Local regional distro BS SRP at the time was insane. Currently its still a whopping AUD$799! Fortunately the Champion 100 street price has ameliorated so one can currently be had for as little as AUD$549 from a reliable local online reseller.
My response to Fender. "Screw you! I'll buy Blackstar, or Boss et al instead". I will never buy the brand within AU while they regionally price gouge. I have 2 Fender amps sourced from Thomann, and 4 Blackstar amps, the latter all sourced from local dealers within AU. Zero overpriced Fender or Squier brand guitars owned ...or even desired here. Same reason. I bluntly refuse to be regionally, brand prestige or segment marketing price gouged. How's that going for Boeing ...with far less competition in the marketplace? Airbus is cleaning up is how. For those unaffected by a craven need for brand association, there's just no reason to pay silly prices for the Fender or Gibson brands today in order to obtain a capable decent quality instrument AFAIC. Who knows which brand my next guitar will be, but the probability of it being anything from Fender/Squier or Gibson/Epiphone is highly unlikely -understatement.
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3,457 posts
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Post by LeoThunder on Dec 10, 2019 23:11:48 GMT
I had more than 10 Harley Benton and none had serious fretwork issues although many required minor intervention. Filing down half of two frets on a guitar is something I can do with very simple tools and I'd rather do that than fiddle around with a soldering iron (ok, It's probably because I have a cheap one). But I also really dislike the idea of buying something to replace part of it. I don't order a Hawai pizza to throw away the ananas and put olives I bought elsewhere on it… Still, I must say reading all the stories about returns has kept me from ordering stuff, and I'm in Germany.
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3,457 posts
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Post by LeoThunder on Dec 10, 2019 23:30:15 GMT
For those unaffected by a craven need for brand association, there's just no reason to pay silly prices for the Fender or Gibson brands today in order to obtain a capable decent quality instrument AFAIC. Who knows which brand my next guitar will be, but the probability of it being anything from Fender/Squier or Gibson/Epiphone is highly unlikely -understatement. Absolutely. I have Fender amps because they're cheap. The entry level ones (Mustang and Rumble) are likely better than the competition at their price and I can sell them without a loss thanks to the name (having bought them used, of course), which is one objective advantage of buying from a popular brand. I use Fender strings for the same reason on bass: good at a lower price. I have one good Squier I got fairtly cheap used but I won't touch those that are twice the price of a good Harley Benton for no added features. I am still terminally p…ed off at the Contemporary series coming with square neck heels and humbuckers without coil split. I think that did it.
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34 posts
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Post by mitchmacblues on Dec 11, 2019 21:49:56 GMT
Thanks for your answers, it will be good to get as many experiences on the 2019 batch as possible, preferably on the sc450.
manXcat, I completely agree with you that Harley Benton should focus on quality and reduce spending on promotion, in particular on youtubers. I personally don’t care about the new models or youtuber signature models, I have been attracted by low prices and excellent “bones” in HB guitars. With minor setup work, you get comfortable fretboards, tuning stability and decent pickups (with the old Wilkinsons, even very nice pickups) . Certainly more than the old “you get what you pay for”, and in many cases, as Leo Thunder says, no need to change any parts. As it should be.
And with the price rises, more acute in some models, some are becoming unattractive. BM75 at 300€? SC550 close to that mark? Not tempting anymore. I would rather save a little more for a Squier Classic Vibe or an Epi Pro, at least I can bring them to a gig without the owner raising eyebrows.
Maybe this year they have been suffering from too much success. After all, many models went out of stock very quickly and for prolonged periods. If you have excess demand, it is just natural to raise prices, and costs in Asia are rising.
I am willing to pay a little more than before to get good quality and avoid the minor bother of rough and dirty frets, for example. But if I am getting lower quality with return risk, at higher prices, possibly my HB GAS can be tamed...
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Post by blindwilly3fingers on Dec 11, 2019 22:39:40 GMT
I purchased an SC450 GTP90 a couple of months ago, apart from the damaged switch and a couple of very slightly high frets it very good.
As far as the fret work goes it was bloody good only a very very slight rock on a couple of frets. No buzz or dead spots the action was a tad high but to be truthful very close to the Gibson recommended specs for a Les Paul. The no name P90's Are superb I love them. I did do resistance reading both just over 9k I can't remember what the henries reading was? I was half expecting to change them as I had read conflicting opinions but I like how they sound. It's actually a loud guitar, louder than all of my others. The fretboard is Blackwood tech or whatever you call it. I did have reservations but having purchased a JA60 at the start of the year I took the gamble. I'd rather have Rosewood or other hardwood but I have to say I've not found any faults or had any problems (fingers crossed I'm not jinxing myself). I used mineral oil based fretboard treat on the JA60 because it felt and looked a tad dry and its been fine all year. I haven't treated the SC450 fretboard yet as it look and plays fine.
Tbh I was not expecting the SC450 to be anywhere close to my SC550 but OK the hardware may be a little better quality and the bone nut and jatoba fretboard are certainly better. For fit and finish & setup I can't fault it. I was genuinely supprised what I got for £131, now I may be lucky and have got a good one?
I did contemplate waiting to see if they go back to rosewood or similar after the change it cites. But with the brexit bollocks I took the plunge or GAS got the better of me?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2019 23:32:27 GMT
With minor setup work, you get comfortable fretboards, tuning stability and decent pickups (with the old Wilkinsons, even very nice pickups) . Certainly more than the old “you get what you pay for”, and in many cases, as Leo Thunder says, no need to change any parts. As it should be. And with the price rises, more acute in some models, some are becoming unattractive. BM75 at 300€? SC550 close to that mark? Not tempting anymore. I would rather save a little more for a Squier Classic Vibe or an Epi Pro, at least I can bring them to a gig without the owner raising eyebrows. <snip> I am willing to pay a little more than before to get good quality and avoid the minor bother of rough and dirty frets, for example. But if I am getting lower quality with return risk, at higher prices, possibly my HB GAS can be tamed... The above pretty much summarises my triage too. My solo Roseacer fretboard (on the HB SC Custom) is OK, but definitely not in the same wood quality class as my Rosewood fretboards on the 6xx/3xx/1xx Pacificas from Yamaha and TC from Cort, nor as aesthetically attractive. It came fitted with Roswells, my only if minor complaint. They're OK, but the Korean Wilkinson technical equivalents I've replaced them with do sound significantly better/more pleasing to my ear. OK they were relatively inexpensive sourced through AliExpress during one of their regular sales, but an additional expense nevertheless. I'd prefer to have paid a small premium for them fitted as default OOTB. That kind of penny pinching by Harley Benton when they are spending on double page spread advertising, and worse, You Tube influencer freebies to undeserving -censored- I despise and can't relate to, galls and alienates me no end. As you say, the brand needs to put on their judicious hat and reassess if it's truly worth alienating their current core buying demographic in exchange for targeting the potentially wider catchment of shallow spin and brand orientated buying idiocracy. This year, since deferred to next, as mentioned I wanted (note past tense) to buy a Harley Benton SG and ES clones, but was put off pressing the buy now button by the numerous reports of unacceptable QC, particularly in fingerboard quality and finish regardless of the fact of the alternative wood issue. This past year as mentioned, Harley Benton prices (delivered) to me have effectively risen more than 25%. That is making an Epiphone SG G400 Pro from Thomann for not a great deal more (delivered) than a HB DC Custom look a lot more attractive and appealing alternative. Similarly an Epiphone ES style in lieu of the HB 35 Plus I was planning.
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3,457 posts
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Post by LeoThunder on Dec 13, 2019 3:59:33 GMT
It came fitted with Roswells, my only if minor complaint. They're OK, but the Korean Wilkinson technical equivalents I've replaced them with do sound significantly better/more pleasing to my ear. OK they were relatively inexpensive sourced through AliExpress during one of their regular sales, but an additional expense nevertheless. I'd prefer to have paid a small premium for them fitted as default OOTB. That kind of penny pinching by Harley Benton … They said they switched to Roswell because the sourcing of real Wilkinson pick-ups was not reliable. Now, I had an SC-Custom with Wilkinsons that sounded so dull I sold it. My SC-450 Plus with Roswells sounds better to my ears, which means clearer (more high end) although still not enough to my taste. Humbuckers on my other guitars all sound clearer. I have since understood that there is a demand for blunt "warm" tone and I stay away from instruments that are designed to fulfill it but my question here is how the Wilkinsons are "better". Did I get fake ones? Is the wiring of the SC-Custom the reason for the difference? It is wired as a Jazz Bass, which ought to dull out the sound further so maybe that's really all the problem I had with it. I have two ST-62's, one with Wilkinson, one with Roswell and while there is a subtle difference between them, I strongly suspect it comes from the strings.
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Post by ccspir2 on Dec 19, 2019 16:07:19 GMT
I received by first HB, a SC-450 Plus VB at the beginning of this month (December 5th). I have to say, I have no problems with it. I had to slightly file one fret to get rid of some buzz, and intonation had to be adjusted on two strings. But that's it. Roswell pickups sound pretty good. Definitely different than my Gibson Les Paul, but they don't sound cheap. The playability of the HB is better than the Gibson in my opinion. But for $157 I didn't have great expectations, and the guitar has exceeded the ones I did have. I've been playing for about 40 years. I have a 72 Fender Strat, a custom Telecaster, and a Gibson Les Paul Faded T. The SC-450 still gets more playing time right now, and I will have no problem playing it in a gig next year. I did change the tuners to locking tuners, but so far that and the strings are the only things I've changed. A pickup change may happen in the future just because I like to tinker with my guitars. I'm not at all sorry that I bought the SC-450, and will likely pick up another guitar from Thomann next year.
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3,457 posts
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Post by LeoThunder on Dec 19, 2019 16:13:55 GMT
The playability of the HB is better than the Gibson in my opinion. Interesting. In what way?
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Post by ccspir2 on Dec 19, 2019 16:23:21 GMT
The playability of the HB is better than the Gibson in my opinion. Interesting. In what way? I realize that it is subjective and everyone is different. The neck on the HB feels more comfortable, and the balance is better. I don't notice any difference in the feel of the fretboard (Gibson is rosewood), but I will say the Gibson pickups are better. The Gibson also has the expected tuning issues with the G and B strings, but lubricating the nut and bridge will probably help it like it did with the HB. Just expected the better nut on the Gibson to not have those issues. Honestly, I can't see or feel the difference between the two justifying the higher price of the Gibson. I've only had the Les Paul for 2 weeks, so need to spend more time adjusting, but they are both good guitars. The HB was $157 new, the Gibson (a 2017) was $600 used.
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3,457 posts
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Post by LeoThunder on Dec 19, 2019 16:42:01 GMT
Interesting. In what way? I realize that it is subjective and everyone is different. The neck on the HB feels more comfortable, and the balance is better. I don't notice any difference in the feel of the fretboard (Gibson is rosewood), but I will say the Gibson pickups are better. The Gibson also has the expected tuning issues with the G and B strings, but lubricating the nut and bridge will probably help it like it did with the HB. Just expected the better nut on the Gibson to not have those issues. Honestly, I can't see or feel the difference between the two justifying the higher price of the Gibson. I've only had the Les Paul for 2 weeks, so need to spend more time adjusting, but they are both good guitars. The HB was $157 new, the Gibson (a 2017) was $600 used. Neck profiles are a personal thing. I would theorise that the best neck profile is whatever someone grew up with. Gibsons will also come with different profiles through the years, so generalisation is impossible. I don't know how fingerboards feel. I do my best to put my fingers on the strings, anyway. Balance can also be a tricky thing. Wood is not constant so varying density can change the balance from one guitar to the next, together with the total weight. Tuners are ok. They're not the smooth, higher ratio Grover you get on the SC-Custom but at the price, it is hardly expected. Then of course, the neck heel is rounded on the HB. Mine (from 2018) has a fretwork and neck angle that enable perfectly low action, so I suppose I can be as happy as a Les Paul owner can be on that level but I know this is not always everyone's case. Maybe price plays a role in the spread and we are taking more of a gamble.
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