3,457 posts
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Post by LeoThunder on Mar 7, 2020 17:57:01 GMT
Quality report
Action on arrival: 2 to 3 mm at 12th fret. That's high. There's a bit of an excuse for it, as courses have a string lower than the other. If the action is set to be lowest for the low strings, the high ones add their offset to it, and they gave the figures I measured. Still, that thing was hard to play. I took it all down.
Fretwork was perfect… until the 16th, 18th and 21st frets, higher than they should. All others were level and any normal 12-string player probably wouldn't even bother. But I like to grate at things until they're quiet so I took the strings off, all 12 of them, and filed the haughty ones down.
The 18th, in particular, was making the high strings choke when I lowered the action. I lowered it so far that I got the same note on two frets, as fretting 17 was actually fretting 18 on the high E already.
Action is now 1.5 to 2.1 mm at 12th fret. Out of pure curiosity, for comparison with a 6-string, low course action is 1.25 - 1,75 mm.
I'll do intonation later… Yes, it's still off. No one ever did it, saddles were just arranged to some pattern that's probably copied from one good set-up and passed on as a instruction to whomever puts this together. This pattern fits neither the string height nor the strings themselves.
As I had the strings off, I could compare the high G with the high E and found it thinner, more flexible. I guess people have learned and no longer put a 10 in there. This is probably a 9 or maybe even the 8 it should be. I haven't broken it yet…
Oh, and before I finish, the fun thing of the afternoon: as I was battling with the 18th fret because I had to level it again after I put the strings back on (I'm cautious when doing this), I tried to raise the high E in a futile attempt at not finishing the silly job. I know it raises pitch, I know I should loosen a little but I didn't and off came the lower high E (you guys still following?). Idiot, I thought to myself… then the higher high E came off too. These two must be the kind who go to the loo together.
But they didn't break, they had unravelled. I found the ball ends on the couch. So I picked them up, tied them back to the string (I actually put a knot in them) and put them back on the guitar. They're still there, all tuned up. No, I'm not cheap. I like to try things out. That's why I bought a 12-string. Now I can make knots with guitar strings.
What an afternoon…
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3,457 posts
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Post by LeoThunder on Mar 7, 2020 20:13:13 GMT
I was tuning the G string and… the high D unravelled. This thing is haunted Or the strings are cr… I had Orphee strings that did that. I need to get replacement strings quick. Yes, I made another knot. The third one today…
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3,457 posts
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Post by LeoThunder on Mar 8, 2020 5:09:05 GMT
The binding occurred on the low D and the high D unravelled while I was tuning the high G. There is some backstabbing malevolence to that thing. I think it secretly resents its ridiculous price.
But the high D also did that, occasionally stopped raising in pitch as I was turning, and I was having the same problem with the high G, so I'm expecting that one to fly off next. When I had the strings off, I put Vaseline under the retainer bar. That didn't seem to help. I guess the strings are junk, which is quite likely at the price point.
I was tuning up the high G, very slowly, worrying about seemingly nothing happening, so I loosened it a couple of turns. Maybe that's what the high D didn't like. Loosening a string tightens the others when the neck is resisting tension.
I tune in playing position, plucking hand plucking over the strings, forearm covering them, so nothing happened.
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3,457 posts
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Post by LeoThunder on Mar 8, 2020 5:16:57 GMT
Neck measurements: Thickness: 22.3 mm at 1st fret, 22.5 at 12th; Nut width 47.7 mm, Neck width at 12th fret: 52.2 mm; Frets: 2.6 mm wide, 1.2 mm high Fingerboard radius ~14" (maybe)
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3,457 posts
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Post by LeoThunder on Mar 8, 2020 9:54:28 GMT
Intonation reportIntonation is almost done. I wimped out a bit. After lowering the action, I had to lengthen most strings, that's a given. Not all because the fist two courses had been off at the silly level the bridge was originally set and they turned out spot on after I lowered them. The other four required serious adjustment because I took them quite a way down: The good surprise was that the Fender bridge is apparently designed to provide fairly close intonation to the 2nd string once the 1st is set. The high G was spot on and the high D and A were close enough at about 10 cents so I didn't bother. The high E on the 6th course was off by quite a bit, some 40 cents and I should have swapped the anchoring point of the secondary saddle to bring it back to the shorter length it required. That's when I wimped out and decided I wouldn't be arsed. Who plays the low E in the high half of the neck anyway? Well, yes, I do. I did say I wimped out. I'll do it when I change strings, which is normally never but since these like to unravel without warning, it might be sooner than that. But none did this time. I'm impressed. My knots are better than the real thing. And I did tune the whole lot back and forth because here's the big fat warning: When adjusting intonation, when lengthening strings, loosen the bloody things! Really, not just a semitone or two. Because of cheap soft metal in the screws.Apologies to the experienced who think I'm stating the obvious. Maybe someone will read this for the first time. People warn about raising pitch when doing this, say strings can break. True, but that's not the only reason. String tension requires more force applied to the screw and cheap ones will strip. Then you're stuck with them. Loosening the strings slack is a pain but it makes the adjustment effortless and cheap screws remain whole. Do it or buy a bloody Fender. Supposing their screws are better. I assume they are. So I did see how my screwdriver was biting into the D screw and stopped right there. Screwing back to shorten strings does not require this precaution since strings are pulling to help anyway. I lowered the pick-ups too. They sound clearer as a result, as everyone says. I put them 3mm away from fretted strings, using an Allen wrench as a feeler gauge, then I did some fine tuning by ear to match the bass/treble decline in string output and adjusted the balance between pick-ups to taste.
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Post by LeoThunder on Mar 9, 2020 3:59:14 GMT
Intonation fail!
I went back to it and tried to switch the secondary saddle position for the low E course by moving its screw to the forward hole but it has no thread! I couldn't do it. Ouate de phoque?
I tried another saddle and it's the same. I can't swap them. I'd have to buy one. Just one, not a whole bridge…
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3,457 posts
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Post by LeoThunder on Mar 11, 2020 4:54:28 GMT
After having had this for four days I am uncertain what to do with it. Quality is just ok, which is according to price. I played with pick-up height and got them to sound to their best. I hope better strings would make a difference as I am not too impressed so far, although I cannot quite say why.
I am slowly getting used to playing the thing. It's hard to fret, which is the logical consequence of having to press two strings down as a time, even with action as low as possible. Bar chords are a pain in the hand. For now.
I am not getting used to the look. Thick slab of wood still looks thicky slabby and ugly next to any other guitar I have. If it were a 6-string I wouldn't keep it a day longer, wouldn't ever have got it in the first place but I'm not sure I want to spend more so it's either keeping the ugly thing or giving up on 12-string altogether. I'm going to use that gigbag after all. Just so I don't have to see the guitar when I'm not playing it.
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DefJef
THBC Moderator
Due to musical differences I've decided I can't work with myself any more.
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Post by DefJef on Mar 11, 2020 10:08:07 GMT
Intonation fail!I went back to it and tried to switch the secondary saddle position for the low E course by moving its screw to the forward hole but it has no thread! I couldn't do it. Ouate de phoque? I tried another saddle and it's the same. I can't swap them. I'd have to buy one. Just one, not a whole bridge… If it has no thread how is it staying in the hole that it is currently in? Do you think it has stripped during your setting up or did it arrive that way? I found fretting an awful lot harder on my Epiphone 12 string. Many players like to tune down a half step and then capo the first fret which suggests to me that going down a gauge or two might help. As for the look, these things are of course subjective, but what I notice most about it is that extra large top 'horn'. Presumably enlarged to help the reworked heel/neck point it has resulted in a join somewhere near the 15th or 16th fret on that side making it look rather similar to Matt Bellamy's Manson. A look that I have never liked. The rest of it I do like although I would certainly have to take that shine down. I never finish my guitars in super high gloss. In fact I used to avoid my SG till I hit it with some oven cleaner. Now I LIKE to pick it up.
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Post by LeoThunder on Mar 11, 2020 10:36:55 GMT
There are two holes in the saddles, two possible anchoring positions for the screw that holds the secondary saddle in place, offering the possibility of moving it forward to the nut or backwards to the bridge. This is how it looks like on a functioning one: The bridge I got has all screws at the back, in threaded holes but the forward holes are unthreaded and useless. I cannot move the screw to them. This is a bad joke of a bridge disguising as what it is not after all. Only the higher low E string is having an issue, so I don't mind too much. I don't mind the top horn, I didn't even noticed how it had moved forward. I just don't like thick edgy slabs. It's like seeing a Volvo next to a Jaguar. Contours would make everything ok.
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3,457 posts
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Post by LeoThunder on Mar 11, 2020 11:01:43 GMT
I filed a couple of nut slots (more like 4 or 5) down to bring 1st fret action down to 0.75 mm on the bass side. It wasn't too much higher and does not make a massive difference but I had to do it. I'll just get stronger fingers…
I am more pleased with the sound when using the neutral amp model, which is just bare, uncoloured "hi-fi" amplification without any actual modelling and sounds closest to an acoustic sound, or even better, with the acoustic simulator of my Stomplab.
I guess I'm keeping the guitar. I'll just have to find the right angle when leaving it on display. Hiding it away is no solution, I wouldn't play it…
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3,457 posts
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Post by LeoThunder on Mar 11, 2020 11:16:36 GMT
I really am concerned about those missing threads though. We were all fascinated by the option of reversing courses and how possible it would be. This bridge seemed to be the perfect answer. I'm sorry you had to be the one to discover it was not machined properly. Is it too late to point it out to Gear4Music? I wonder if they have been informed of this before? That was the point, yes. This ingenious thing certainly made part of the appeal, since it promised perfect intonation. All I need are three saddles with proper threads, then I can turn the set-up around as it should be. It is never too late to inform the seller. I really should do it. Maybe they'll offer to send me replacement parts. Hopefully not another full guitar
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Post by LeoThunder on Mar 11, 2020 15:50:08 GMT
The rest of it I do like although I would certainly have to take that shine down. I never finish my guitars in super high gloss. In fact I used to avoid my SG till I hit it with some oven cleaner. Now I LIKE to pick it up. It's always interesting to see what people dislike. I don't mind high gloss, not unless it turns into a collection of fingerprints on a black surface. Some people will have an utter dislike of gold hardware, which I like in combination with certain colours, like black. Others will reject bindings, and I'm with them when it comes to mother of pearl all around but not with a decent cream or aged white. I like an open pore finish, I have three guitars of that sort which I love. What I do not want are Danelectro or Fender toy colours, the Fiesta Red or Daphne Blue with white pickguard. I like the natural ash on the Knoxville. I was lucky with the figurations and the rest is tolerable. The neck has a raw finish, not the soft satin feeling I get from my Ibanez, but that's what I get for the price. It smells funny, though. This will go away with time.
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