organicmccall
Harley Benton Club Junior Member
SC-550 Tobacco Flame, King-CE, CLA-15M, CLD-41S WN, CLF-200 WN
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Post by organicmccall on Jan 30, 2019 12:09:55 GMT
Hello all, New member here. I live here in Germany and discovered Thomann and HB while pricing out Epiphone LP's. I started reading the reviews and basically told myself I could get 3 HB guitars for the approximately what I was planning to spend on an Epiphone. So, i ordered the SC-550 to investigate. Was significantly impressed enough (other than a significantly muddy bridge pick-up) to pull the trigger on two more acoustics, and ordered the CLA-15M and the King. These guitars were basically perfect, so visited Thomann (made the 3 hr pilgrimage) this past weekend with the intent to Buy EITHER the Superior or the CLJ-45 and one of the Travel guitars (considering either the mahogany or the Solid Spruce top version). I came home with none of the above and came home with the CLD-41S WN and the CLF-200 WN.
First on the guitars I thought I wanted. I cant even express how disappointed I was with the CLJ-45. I used to own a Gibson J-45 and thought this would at least be close. No where near close. Tone was not there. Balance (as expected out of a sloped shoulder dreadnaught) not there, the display model at least really sounded awful. So then, i picked up the Superior. The tone was "ok" on this, but the action was unreal high. It was almost unplayable. No idea why they had this guitar as a display model. There was an Epiphone Hummingbird and Dove a few feet away and I compared...and I wouldn't say this of many HB guitars...but the "original" (if you consider the Epi the original) was far better and actually worth the price increase. In fact after playing...the Dove is now on my list.
On to the travel guitars. First, i already have a crappy (Fender Sonoran) 3/4 guitar that I bought for my kids to mess around on. But, i was hoping that one of the HB travel guitars was significantly differentiated from this guitar to justify buying another. They weren't. I tried the spruce, the mahogany and even the solid top spruce, and honestly could not convince myself that either were a significant improvement over the Fender.
So, NONE of the guitars i wanted impressed me (after freaking HOURS of research and listening online). Good thing I went to the store, eh? SO, i sat and played a crazy number of HB's over a 3 hour period. Tow continued to stand out. The CLF-200 on display was amazing. The sound was wonderful, great tone and loud for a parlor guitar ( I had said quite emphatically the last thing I needed was another parlor style guitar...but here we are). The next was the CLD-41S WN. I have a Martin Shenandoah back in the US and had also said I did not need another Martin style dreadnaught. But, this thing was reeeeaaaly impressive. So, i bought the CLF-200 WN and the CLD-41S WN. They gave me stock from the warehouse.
SO, I get them home...and this is where my love affair with HB starts to get tarnished and i get a clearer picture of how they operate. First, the CLF 200 WN. The action was significantly higher on the one from stock. After tweaking the truss rod, it has helped for sure, but now there is significant buzz in the low E around the 3rd fret. Agonizingly annoying as EVERYTHING else about this guitar is amazing. The sound is great, volume, its stunningly beautiful, etc. Just this annoying fret buzz. Should I try to send it back?? The saddle is very low and leaves no room for adjustment there.
Next CLD-41S WN, similar story. Except the action on this one was great, sound amazing, etc., but clearly someone spilled stain down the back when it was being finished and there are 3 huge lines of spill mark that are darker than the rest of the guitar. This alone should have qualified it as "B-stock". I don't concern myself much with aesthetics anyway, so no big deal...but it ALSO has the fret buzz.
As I stated on another thread, I do not expect miracles for guitars in this price range, and honestly they are still great guitars for what i paid for them. BUT, they are so agonizingly close to perfect that its annoying. SO, this all leads me to my conclusions. Even though Thomann says they do great QC, but i do not think that they quite do....or at least they have different mechanisms, they shift the responsibility. First, they put huge bargaining pressure on their manufacturers. If too many guitars are found out of spec, they don't pay. Second, they don't do as much in house. They allocate those resources to Customer Service...and have US, their customers, handle the final QC for much of their instruments. So, instead of inspecting every guitar in house for (near) perfection, the have done a calculus that says, for example 10% will be made out of spec. Send them out anyway. The customers who are unhappy with those (theoretically less than 10%) will contact customer service (hence having great CS) for a replacement. I spoke with a guy that used to work for Thomann and he basically confirmed much of this.
Anyway, in the end, I still dig their guitars and am a fan. Its just the ones that are so close that get me. Lots in here, sorry for the long first post, but I have been looking for someone to unload all this info on! My wife is considerably tired of hearing me drone on about HB guitars. Glad I found this forum.
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1,110 posts
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Post by dodger on Jan 30, 2019 14:24:05 GMT
Welcome again organicmccall, good post. I'm glad I read this as well - I was very nearly buying the CLJ45 but ended up getting an all-solid Faith guitar instead. It was almost twice the price but sounds fantastic. I think the matte finish HBs really let the sound breathe and the lacquer looks pretty thick on the gloss finished ones. Both my HB acoustics played great out of the box. Seems to be a bit of a lottery but the fact you can exchange the guitars probably make up for this.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2019 1:35:52 GMT
Im now thinking ... I went to one local store and tried many Martin and Gibson guitars which were on display on their walls and all of them either had sky high action, just ridiculous, or had lots of fret buzz or pickguards unglued and just seemed like the worst guitars ever and yet the PRICE TAG WAS like HUGE Maybe they were hanging there for too long, being abused by the elements of various kinds. Of all the guitars I really liked the Yamaha grand auditorium (and that was the tone and sustain I was after and found it in my CLD-41S WN) In another shop there was a cheap Tanglewood acoustic that almost sliced my fingers on those sharp fret ends. I mean both expensive and cheap guitars can be crap I guess.
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organicmccall
Harley Benton Club Junior Member
SC-550 Tobacco Flame, King-CE, CLA-15M, CLD-41S WN, CLF-200 WN
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Post by organicmccall on Feb 1, 2019 12:18:50 GMT
Great write up. I'm in the US so it's even more risky to place an order. I'm lucky my first order, CST-24, was a superb instrument. It even came tuned up ... indicating to me that this received some love before being sent to me. I plan to order another one or two, but I'm not going to OD. The more I purchase, the more likely of having a bad product sent my way. I will order the Extreme 84 and that'll be it for now. I really wanted the SC-450 Plus, but I have a Burny and an Epi that could sub quite well. I'm just hoping that my current luck with HB continues. 10% defect rate would be bad, but with the amount I'd be saving, it's still a great deal in the long run. I am moving back to the US in a couple of months and the difficulty you mention is EXACTLY why I have been loading up on HB guitars and visited the store before I left (I bought 5 HB's in the last 2 months. ). But, here i am still here and cant decide whether or not to send my last 2 back...? I guess my issues is that they are still pretty good guitars and by sending these back I would throw myself back into the "lottery" and unsure if I get something worse next?? Since you mentioned the SC-450. My thoughts. The first HB that I bought was the SC-550. Overall I like the guitar a lot. The neck PU is bad ass and has a great sound, the bridge PU though, is very muddy and honestly I will have to replace it at some point. Still a crazy beautiful guitar and all else was surprising enough to spur me to the next 4 HB purchases. Since I have had it a couple of months now I played it up against an Epi LP...and I have to say I liked the Epi sound better. If you watch Cory Muras comparison video I think he captures the difference fairly well in that video. The Epi is much warmer and closer to what you would want out of an LP copy. As I am learning about HB's...they do not sound like their intended Copy counterpart. But, many of them sound good to very good on their own merit and are just simply different. The LP is in that category (at least for the Neck PU) and I just happen to like the Epi sound better. I am mostly and acoustic player, but if I get another electric the CST-24 is on my list to look at. Its that or a tele.
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organicmccall
Harley Benton Club Junior Member
SC-550 Tobacco Flame, King-CE, CLA-15M, CLD-41S WN, CLF-200 WN
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Post by organicmccall on Feb 1, 2019 12:21:50 GMT
Im now thinking ... I went to one local store and tried many Martin and Gibson guitars which were on display on their walls and all of them either had sky high action, just ridiculous, or had lots of fret buzz or pickguards unglued and just seemed like the worst guitars ever and yet the PRICE TAG WAS like HUGE Maybe they were hanging there for too long, being abused by the elements of various kinds. Of all the guitars I really liked the Yamaha grand auditorium (and that was the tone and sustain I was after and found it in my CLD-41S WN) In another shop there was a cheap Tanglewood acoustic that almost sliced my fingers on those sharp fret ends. I mean both expensive and cheap guitars can be crap I guess. Agree that all companies and price ranges can have issues with QC...and a guitar is a complex instrument, many variables that could be off. I still am impressed overall with the stuff that HB is putting out there, it was just a frustrating step back in that my first couple were almost perfect and the last two had some issues. For the price, i get it...its just that they are soo close.
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eddie
Harley Benton Club Member
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Post by eddie on Feb 1, 2019 19:02:58 GMT
Great write up. I'm in the US so it's even more risky to place an order. I'm lucky my first order, CST-24, was a superb instrument. It even came tuned up ... indicating to me that this received some love before being sent to me. I plan to order another one or two, but I'm not going to OD. The more I purchase, the more likely of having a bad product sent my way. I will order the Extreme 84 and that'll be it for now. I really wanted the SC-450 Plus, but I have a Burny and an Epi that could sub quite well. I'm just hoping that my current luck with HB continues. 10% defect rate would be bad, but with the amount I'd be saving, it's still a great deal in the long run. I am moving back to the US in a couple of months and the difficulty you mention is EXACTLY why I have been loading up on HB guitars and visited the store before I left (I bought 5 HB's in the last 2 months. ). But, here i am still here and cant decide whether or not to send my last 2 back...? I guess my issues is that they are still pretty good guitars and by sending these back I would throw myself back into the "lottery" and unsure if I get something worse next?? Since you mentioned the SC-450. My thoughts. The first HB that I bought was the SC-550. Overall I like the guitar a lot. The neck PU is bad ass and has a great sound, the bridge PU though, is very muddy and honestly I will have to replace it at some point. Still a crazy beautiful guitar and all else was surprising enough to spur me to the next 4 HB purchases. Since I have had it a couple of months now I played it up against an Epi LP...and I have to say I liked the Epi sound better. If you watch Cory Muras comparison video I think he captures the difference fairly well in that video. The Epi is much warmer and closer to what you would want out of an LP copy. As I am learning about HB's...they do not sound like their intended Copy counterpart. But, many of them sound good to very good on their own merit and are just simply different. The LP is in that category (at least for the Neck PU) and I just happen to like the Epi sound better. I am mostly and acoustic player, but if I get another electric the CST-24 is on my list to look at. Its that or a tele. When I received my CST-24 last week, the only guitar I could compare it against was an Epi LP Ultra. I would agree ... the Epi pups were hotter. But the HB Roswells weren't "that" far off. The Epi LP Ultra cost me $500 pre-owned. The HB CST cost me $202 brand new. So I think it's a fantastic deal. I'm thinking of getting the SC-450 Plus. $187 shipped to NYC. From there, I can add a set of Parson Street PAF's and a Jimmy Page harness for another $150. That combo will sink any $3000 Gibson.
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608 posts
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Post by oghkhood on Feb 2, 2019 8:07:10 GMT
I do not think so. It will depend on either good is the SC450+ you receive and bad the Gibson is. I do not say it can't be, but it is unlikely. And the best way to get to this is to choose your instrument by playing it before buy, and this not how things work with HB, but I did find several low cost gems like this
But chances are very strong that you'll get something to ashame any other guitar that would cost the same money in any shop
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Post by mattmilton on Feb 3, 2019 10:42:36 GMT
How is your parlour guitar for fingerstyle? I really like its sound on the videos I have watched but I prefer wider string spacing to 43mm nuts
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eddie
Harley Benton Club Member
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Post by eddie on Feb 3, 2019 13:52:14 GMT
I do not think so. It will depend on either good is the SC450+ you receive and bad the Gibson is. I do not say it can't be, but it is unlikely. And the best way to get to this is to choose your instrument by playing it before buy, and this not how things work with HB, but I did find several low cost gems like this
But chances are very strong that you'll get something to ashame any other guitar that would cost the same money in any shop I totally agree. I'm just being tongue in cheek when I say my HB will knock out a Gibby ... it's not going to happen. BUT ... you're right, there isn't a single guitar in the price range (or even double/triple) the price range that can compare to an HB. I sold some things yesterday. I have enough for two more HB's. ha ha. Extreme 84 and SC450Plus. I can't place the order right away as I'm going on vacation in two weeks. I can't risk the guitars sitting on my porch while I'm out. ha ha
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organicmccall
Harley Benton Club Junior Member
SC-550 Tobacco Flame, King-CE, CLA-15M, CLD-41S WN, CLF-200 WN
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Post by organicmccall on Feb 4, 2019 9:43:55 GMT
How is your parlour guitar for fingerstyle? I really like its sound on the videos I have watched but I prefer wider string spacing to 43mm nuts Unfortunately I am not much of a fingerstyle player as of yet. I am hoping that owning the CLF will inspire me. I mostly bought it as a body style that is differentiated from my others (have a couple of Dreadnaughts, etc). Again, no expert, but the neck is possibly a bit thin for really efficient fingerpicking (though the David Phillips video obviously shows some can rock it). I would guess a wider neck such as on the CLP-15M version would be a bit better. As I have mentioned in other posts, I have a Love/Hate relationship with the CLF. I love the sound overall and the volume is incredible for a body that small. But, without any work done to it yet, I have significant fret buzz that has settled in on the top 4 strings around the 3rd fret if i play with any kid of force. I refer to her as "rattle trap" nowadays. If I play soft, she sounds beautiful.
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