14 posts
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Post by bigoldnoob on Apr 6, 2016 12:02:29 GMT
Hi everybody. I'm Andrés and I'm from Madrid (Spain). I received a P-bass kit as a gift earlier this year and put it up, set it up and aso modified it a bit (so far made it a reverse P and added a Jazz pickup from a Squier VM Jazz some guy sold me). My bass looks and sounds like this as of today, yet I'll probably add a Strat style rail pickup in a mudbucker position (or close). I couldn't be happier with this bass, love the playability, resonates a lot, just would love for thomann to offer an ash bodied alternative. All in all I love it and play it regularly (strung DAEB) side by side with a couple MusicMan Stingray 5vers I own as my main, and this kit bass is definitely not 1 to 15 in quality with them as the price might suggest, much the contrary, their value is way closer as musical tools (in the end, that's what a bass is).
(the whole mod history is in the video description @youtube, including videos for 2 previous "generations" of this build)
So, being so happy about it I though about buying some 4 sring bass for my wife, who is taking bass lessons (not from me, from a real teacher). Now, I ordered a B450 which went back to thomann 2 weeks later. Don't like such "modern" basses at all. Playability was horrible, sound was lacking balls and character, and the stupid individual rails bridge ate up all the sustain and made the bass resonate very poorly. Now, I was thinking about getting her a JB75, which has the same neck and basic construction as my kit (great BTW), just the body is ash and has better pickups, etc. But then I found the MM-84. I find the MM-84 better in terms of versatility and prefer the sound (as per sound samples it can definitely mimic some nice P and J tones). Now what keeps me in doubt is the neck thickness. There's no precise data about it anywhere in thomann's website nor is mentioned by any of the reviewers.
While the JB75 states C profile neck (the thin and comfortable neck I know) and the MM84 states D profile neck and some reviewers mention it's a bit on the thick side. But I don't know how to take these reviews (what's thin for some reviewer may feel thick for some others). So, my question is, which neck is faster/thinner? (I mean this front to back, not talking width nor string spacing which frankly I care much less about) By how much? Are those necks (D vs. C spec) that different in feel/thickness or is it just the profile shape?
Nice to be here and read all the useful knowledge that's being spread around here about HB. Thanks in advance for your help!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2016 12:21:10 GMT
Im not bass player but wanted to say welcome and I love that headstock brand name "It's all in the hands" Nice one!
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Post by GKon on Apr 6, 2016 14:51:46 GMT
Welcome, bigoldnoob! I know I've seen that bass over on the TB side. I don't have any input as my two HB's are the kit you built and the EUB500 (electric upright). One of the guys with more hands on is sure to chime in.
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Post by mrdes on Apr 6, 2016 19:35:25 GMT
Hey dude and a BIG hello from ireland. Funny you ask as I have both the 75 and the 84 and also worried about the neck shape before buying.
I personally always prefared jazz bass necks and have sold my fender p years ago because I just love the super slim neck on my fender jazz. The HB jazz neck is thicker than the fender but so is my BZ400 and when I first got my JB75 I wasnt so keen on the neck but have come to like it quite a lot. BUT the thicker fatter neck on the MM84 I would think is possibly faster because there is more room so you can be less precise without fudgeing the note. I love the neck on the MM84 from day one even though its like a baseball bat compared to all my other guitars. If I had to pick between the two I would keep the MM84. I love the big fat sound it produces but thats very subjective. I am not convinced about the pickups on the jazz and may well change them. I am waiting on copper shield tape to sort out the buzz from both of these basses and will put up sound samples when I get it. If you are in a pickle I will try to get you a sample before then but im flat to the boards for the next couple of weeks. My best advice is to get the Mm84 and if your wife doesnt like it I bet you will and not want to send it back then you can get her the jazz bass while you think up a reason to buy the BZ4000!!
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14 posts
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Post by bigoldnoob on Apr 7, 2016 12:10:20 GMT
Thanks guys for all the help. I'm still undecided but might steer towards the MM84 bass as features look nicer and sounds more diverse to me. Read some more reviews and some explicitly state the neck is comfortable despite thickness. One reviewer even describes it as a flat D profile. I might take the chance. WIll let you know. Thanx again!
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Post by mrdes on Apr 7, 2016 15:48:45 GMT
It is a very comfortable neck. Best of luck with the purchace if you go ahead.
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14 posts
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Post by bigoldnoob on Apr 8, 2016 8:07:53 GMT
I'm finally getting the MM84 (just waiting for thomann to refund some money -they got the returned bass 2 days ago-). I know what you mean, if it's a comfortable neck then that's what counts, I know I'm usually too paranoid about neck thickness.
I'm very picky (and usually doubtful) on the subject. Personally find a sharp C (more like a parenthesis) the fastest/easiest. Been mostly playing StingRay 5 for the last 15 years (along with Sterlings, the thinnest Musicman bass necks produced). Also owned several other "sucedanes", a G&L L1505 (hated the neck and electronics), a Cort Curbow 5 (great neck but tonally awkward), an Ibanez ATK-305 (SOLID resonating bass great tone pallette, a pity the neck is too chunky), then bought a second Stingray 5 and stopped looking for that type of basses. Also have a Korean Fernandes Gravity 5 (some 12 years with me, nice enough neck, a hi-fi Jazz -also does a NICE P tone-, happens to be surprisingly good at metal stuff, definitely the Trujillo sound) and lately an Epi Viola (strung DAEB too, saggy strings) that I use for either acoustic stuff or the distorted fast HC I mostly do. One of those punk acts is a sorta "Me first..." but with latin artists' repertoire from the '50s to '70s. We do 2 hour sets so a light bass is a must. That, added to our aesthetics and antics made the Viola a nice alternative. I could cope with the low-B on a 30.5" scale thing (I distort and compress like it's going out of stock) but it's still too microphonic in most live situations (except maybe open air). So since I have the P-kit (still an ongoing work) it is becoming my go to bass for almost every gig. Just to give you an idea, 3 days before the first gig I did with it I had the ball of my left shoulder come out while skating a miniramp (luckily it was put back in place within only some 40/45 min, second time, first time it took some hour and a half). So I had been in some pain for 3 days yet could do the gig with the HB P-bass. Beyond painful at some points but not because of bass' weight but because I could barely reach for the neck with my left arm.
My neck of reference keeps being my SR5s' (one birdseye maple, one rosewood). I enjoy many other basses but those are home to me. Just age is a b**** and these get painfully heavy after an hour (in my other band I also sing lead, which boosts the problem).
These are the bands I'm in, just casually one video with each of my Stingrays.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2016 8:28:47 GMT
These are the bands I'm in, just casually one video with each of my Stingrays. DefJef we have to try get this lad into our Harley Benton Band pronto So you are the singer and bassist, nice one man, sounds great (pity you dont do subtitles, or I could just go and learn some Spanish instead)
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14 posts
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Post by bigoldnoob on Apr 16, 2016 11:59:59 GMT
So, last night I got the MM84. First thing I noticed is some pots where WAY too down, probably took a hit during delivery so I pulled them out properly. Then the bass was PERFECTLY setup for my taste (which is VERY unlikely, I set them up buzzing low). NICE. But this is a b-stock unit, so probably it was already setup by a previous customer who returned it for some reason. The battery was dead. Changed it. This is really the first time I see such kind of neglect from Thomann and am sure going to let them know. Not in an angry vibe @all, I'm a loyal customer so it's in my best interest that they know when they do something wrong and improve it. Anyway, no big deal, I put on a new battery and got the thing running. This bass is HEAVY AF. It's heavier than both my Stingray fivers. I knew it was heavy but if I knew it was THIS heavy, being for the wife, I would have got the JB75 (altho' many claim it's heavy too) or most probably a Hot Rod PJ. Still there's lots of things to like about this MM84.
The whole bass resonates beautifully, plenty of ringing sustain, lovely tone when unplugged. The neck is thick but fast. I have a visual reject thing with it, but once you play on it's decently comfortable. String spacing is more generous than on the C type (P/J) necks so it's also 4mm wider. I have big hands and it plays real soft on both hands. String tension seems less than my P kit, strings are D'Addario nickel .045-.105 but feel thinner (probably because of the chunkier neck). Feels a lot like an Ibanez ATK-305 I had around 2010-2012. Which is not bad, despite being chunky necked it also felt good, but even on that bass I had it setup with .040 strings, something I wouldn't even need to try on the MM84's as it plays SOFT. The pickups wouldn't go higher so I took them off and put some pieces of rubber under them to allow for it, nothing serious. Even with the pickups really low this bass has LOTS OF OUTPUT. Noticeably more than my P-kit and A LOT more than a Musicman. Also the 24 fret board is A VERY BAD IDEA in a bass that is chosen by many for its "slapability", as there's almost no space between the neck pickup and the start of the fretboard, making it A PAIN to pop strings (slapping between pickups is a no-no, sounds ugly and feels even worse). VERY BAD DESIGN FLAW in a bass otherwise cleverly conceived. If this was MY bass I'd definitely move the pickup away 1/2" and redo the pickguard (which , BTW, you can take out when stock without revealing any routes, sweet).
Now onto the tone. I have a problem with these black box active electronics HB uses for active basses (at least on the entry level ones). I think they're bad to the point of defeating the purpose of putting Wilkinson pickups (which are nice) in them. Just as a reference my cheapo' kit's P pickup sounds WAY MORE alive than these (or the ones in the B450 I returned for the case). These electronics definitely SUCK A LOT OF TONE. The other thing that's BAD is that when you switch between pickup combinations there's HUGE mismatches in both gain and EQ. The electronics on any Musicman properly compensate for it doing the necessary EQ and gain shifts. I switched it on mine many times and never had to reach for the amp for re EQing. With this bass you simply cannot. Starting from the bridge, positions 1, 3 and 5 in order have increasingly annoying lo-mid bumps in the 150-200hz zone. That bump is such that it takes out all the character each position has to offer and also severely scoops the sound (in position 1 it's still possible to tame it by maxing the treble). So positions 2 and 4 (single coil MM and J-like, the only ones that can be used with flat onboard EQ) are the ones I played around with more. They're both growly and responsive, you dig in, the character comes out, really enjoyable. The single coil MM position (neckside coil of neck pickup) is by nature thinner sounding than the J (bridgeside coils of both pickups in series), something a real Musicman also compensates for. In fact in the beginning I used the parallel position on mine, then I used single coil for almost a decade and nowadays I find I use the series mode (the most P sounding of them) more and more often, yet my EQ and amp drive have never changed that much (much less while playing).
So the onboard preamp might not exactly be the whacky part (it only does EQ, no link with the 5 position switch which outputs to the volume pot). Maybe it's more the fact that there's no intended tone compensation between coil combinations (a must on a bass that can switch beteen only 1 coil, many 2 coils in series combinations and a 2 series pairs in parallell combination). Makes it suck a lot. The woodwork, hardware and pickups are great, so I'm first checking out how the pickups sound by themselves (using some alligator clips to a plug) and play with phasing some too. Only then I'll have a clear picture. I'd go passive if I found a clear way, even if it doesn't mean the exact same coil combinations. To be honest, if I get only 3 sort of "compensated" positions it would definitely be a step up from how it is now stock (and nothing irreversible in the end). BTW, my initial reaction when opening the control cavity was... "reach for antibiotics now!". TOO STUFFED, UGLY SOLDERING, SCARED TO MOVE THE SLIGHTEST THING IN FEAR OF IT BREAKING. There's even a soldering point joining 2 cables that's not isolated (doesn't move once you put the cover back on, gets compressed by LOTS of cables).
All in all, and onboard electronics mess aside (the BIGGEST con in this bass, followed by -slightly neckdivey- weight) we're keeping this bass which has lots of potential. And, back to the root, this bass is for my wife to continue studying so I'll leave it alone for some time before any mods ;-) Still, I'll record some sound samples first chance I get, promise. Thanks everybody for the great help, will definitely check in here often for anything HB, also share anything valuable I might have.
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Post by mrdes on Apr 16, 2016 18:27:04 GMT
Great to hear the bass arrived and that you like it. I totally agree regarding the mess of spaghetti they used to wire it and would love to get rid of the preamps and make it passive. When it comes to weight my MM84 IS 4.3KG and my JB75 is 4.9KG. My BZ4000 is also 4.9KG and my fender jazz is 4.2. I got tired of weighing basses after that!! Best of luck!
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Post by JAC on Apr 16, 2016 20:11:02 GMT
Thanks for sharing such a long and extensive review, I am sure it will help many with any questions they may have!
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14 posts
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Post by bigoldnoob on Apr 18, 2016 20:24:57 GMT
After googling I ran into this article which explains exactly what I'm experiencing. I think the worse problem is the excessive use of series wiring (2 hambucker Musicmans only use parallel combinations). In paragraph 5 it clearly states series wiring "produces a longer path with increased resistance, adding volume while preventing the highest frequencies from getting through". So, this is how I'm probably rewiring. If we number coils starting from the bridge as 1,2,3,4 I'd have the 5 positions in the switch arranged like this:
1 (closest to neck): coil 1 (single coil MM tone) 2: coils 1&2 (parallel MM tone) 3: coils 1&3 ("thin" J tone) 4: coils 2&4 ("thick" J tone) 5: coils 3&4 (P tone)
Whenever there's 2 coils they'll be parallel. I know position 1 will probably sound louder, yet, being it the treble most coil I think it won't be such an issue (as it isn't when you solo a pickup, i.e., in a J bass). I think I'll both have a much more usable tone and also a much more reasonable gain out of the bass. I'm a too off about this? Thanks again and cheers!
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