7 posts
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Post by blackhawk on Apr 17, 2017 10:43:41 GMT
Hi,
I bought a HB ST-62 that I have completely modified. I only kept the original tuners that are good enough IMO, the body and the neck. I have upgraded all the other parts and converted the guitar to a 7-positions sound. (Tonerider TRS1 pickups, 250k Audio CTS Pots, 0.022uf Orange Drop 715 series for bridge and middle pickup and 0.047uf Orange Drop 715 series for neck pickup, CRL 5 position Switch, switchcraft input Jack, Volume treble bleed (NOS SILVER MICA 0.001uF + 150k 1% RESISTOR), Wilkinson WV6CR SB Chrome Tremolo Bridge, Tusq nut, copper foil shiled in all cavities (but not the tremolo cavity) and vintage wire cables. After all these modifications the guitar sound and tone has improved drastically
Now I want to replace the Harley Benton logo with a new "custom made" decal. So I have to sand the headstock, and re-lacquer again.
I'd like to use the same original lacquer and my question is: Somebody knows what kind of lacquer has been used on the headstock of the HB ST-62?
1) Nitrocellulose lacquer? 2) Polyurethane lacquer? 3) Polyester lacquer? 4) Acrylic lacquer?
Thank you!
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Post by marit on Apr 17, 2017 12:12:38 GMT
I don't think it will be nitro since that's usually a feature on a high end guitar. Try emailing gitarre@thomann.de , they'll probably have the answer. Why is your username blackhawk? I know Dean Markley came out with new strings named Blackhawk but I doubt it has anything to do with that!
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7 posts
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Post by blackhawk on Apr 17, 2017 13:41:27 GMT
Thanks for the reply. I emailed thomann and I will let you know if they give me a response. I think that the lacquer used is polyurethane but I'm not sure. Anyway, before sanding the headstock (only the top side) I will try to apply some acetone and see if there is any reaction. I didn't know that this was a way to test the nitrocellulose!
P.S.: Blackhawk has nothing to do with my "passion" for guitars. It's a nickname I use on other forums associated to my job: "derivatives trader".
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2017 14:22:31 GMT
Folks, the lack finish on HBs are usually VERY THICK so polyurethane likely. I tried to relic my ST-20 and man did I do some serious sanding ... yuck the smell of it is just EDIT; I also read somewhere that they usually use 40 layers of polyurethane. Not sure if this is true tho.
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Post by tarn on Apr 17, 2017 17:23:16 GMT
on the body of the TE52 I'm pretty sure its PU lacquer(very common on cheaper guitars) cos its very hard and doesn't sand easily. on the neck and headstock it very probably a 2K lacquer which is ultra thin(this neck has the thinnest coat i have ever seen) on the FLT90 its probably 2k on the body and neck, made some tiny scratches on the body when mounting the mini's. sanded them out very easily and ended with a light machine buffing. and for the satin neck/headstock on both i got it to a nice smooth shine just with a short hand buffing. buffing PU manually on the other hand is a lengthy job. 2K lacquer is used more and more these days, its the better choice than nitro. any lacquer is not good for your health short term or long but nitro is the worst of them all, as it never fully dreys out and keeps on fuming out for many years. 2K stops fuming after about two to three weeks max. lacquer fumes destroys brain cells, its not a joke theres even a name for it "painters disease" i always find it funny when nitro is synonym to expensive, quality brands. while in reality nitro is the cheapest crapy paint there is, you can't even call it a lacquer. nitro, abandoned in industrial finishing many decades ago haled as the holy grail in guitars
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Post by marit on Apr 18, 2017 10:12:13 GMT
on the body of the TE52 I'm pretty sure its PU lacquer(very common on cheaper guitars) cos its very hard and doesn't sand easily. on the neck and headstock it very probably a 2K lacquer which is ultra thin(this neck has the thinnest coat i have ever seen) on the FLT90 its probably 2k on the body and neck, made some tiny scratches on the body when mounting the mini's. sanded them out very easily and ended with a light machine buffing. and for the satin neck/headstock on both i got it to a nice smooth shine just with a short hand buffing. buffing PU manually on the other hand is a lengthy job. 2K lacquer is used more and more these days, its the better choice than nitro. any lacquer is not good for your health short term or long but nitro is the worst of them all, as it never fully dreys out and keeps on fuming out for many years. 2K stops fuming after about two to three weeks max. lacquer fumes destroys brain cells, its not a joke theres even a name for it "painters disease" i always find it funny when nitro is synonym to expensive, quality brands. while in reality nitro is the cheapest crapy paint there is, you can't even call it a lacquer. nitro, abandoned in industrial finishing many decades ago haled as the holy grail in guitars I didn't want to get into the nitro since I don't know that much about it, but I did read some of what you are saying. Plus, many guitar stands are not for guitars with nitro lacquer. I have a Gibson LP Jr 2015 with nitro lacquer and I didn't want to take the risk so I've bought a 30 euros stand especially for that guitar.
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Post by marit on Apr 18, 2017 10:33:29 GMT
Thanks for the reply. I emailed thomann and I will let you know if they give me a response. I think that the lacquer used is polyurethane but I'm not sure. Anyway, before sanding the headstock (only the top side) I will try to apply some acetone and see if there is any reaction. I didn't know that this was a way to test the nitrocellulose! P.S.: Blackhawk has nothing to do with my "passion" for guitars. It's a nickname I use on other forums associated to my job: "derivatives trader". That's funny, you should tell Dean Markley they've used your name without permission
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7 posts
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Post by blackhawk on Apr 18, 2017 11:20:17 GMT
Thomann replied me that they do not use nitrocellulose on HB ST-62, but they don't specify the paint they use. I sent an email back again asking them for the product they use, and I hope I will get a reply. In other occasions I did not receive any reply to some technical questions I made. I have the impression that Thomann avoid giving too much information about how their guitars are made!
Tarn, I have the same opinion about nitrocellulose. I don`t know why everybody is speaking about nitrocellulose as the "holy grail" for guitars, when there are better and healthier products than this one. I think that is the excessive praising for all the things so-called "vintage".
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3,968 posts
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Post by salteedog on Apr 18, 2017 16:23:10 GMT
I don't think it's secrecy on their part but rather than it's a hassle to find out that info precisely. The customer service guy needs to email the purchasing dept who needs to email the sales manager of their Chinese factory who probably needs to find out from his production manager. And then he get an answer back saying it's "普通漆" which has to be translated back to German "Nicht metallic-Lackierung" and from there to English as "Non metallic painting". So that's what they use - "Non-metallic Painting"
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DefJef
THBC Moderator
Due to musical differences I've decided I can't work with myself any more.
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Post by DefJef on Apr 19, 2017 10:30:49 GMT
Tarn, I have the same opinion about nitrocellulose. I don`t know why everybody is speaking about nitrocellulose as the "holy grail" for guitars, when there are better and healthier products than this one. I think that is the excessive praising for all the things so-called "vintage". Funnily enough I was just reading through an old Guitarist magazine - well, it's sunny and my fingers were hurting from playing slide on a high action guitar - and was amused by an article on nitrocellulose. It opened with the line "By all accounts Clarence (Leo) Fender was always looking to the future...learning from and improving upon that which had gone before. So he would be completely bemused with many guitarists obsession with all things vintage. And that includes the paint." I have to agree that nitrocellulose is a far from perfect finish on a guitar. I just wonder why poly finishes have to be slathered so thickly onto bodies though. I believe some manufacturers are using poly but in thinner finishes and that would seem to be the way to go. All my guitars get dings and usually in the most stupid ways. Only yesterday I put a little dent in the top horn of my natural finished Pacifica and, apart from the annoyance of it, it doesn't harm the mojo, but there's nothing sexy about a poly finish with a crater in it that looks like a sink hole.
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1,110 posts
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Post by dodger on Apr 19, 2017 10:54:31 GMT
Slight degression but extended play of my HB acoustic (CLD41SE) brings a rash on my strumming forearm so I think I must be allergic to the lacquer used on it (it's probably a thin layer of some poly as it's a matte finish). Some barrier cream applied before playing has sorted this (or long sleeves). Anyone get a similar reaction to any of their guitars?
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Post by marit on Apr 19, 2017 20:45:15 GMT
Slight degression but extended play of my HB acoustic (CLD41SE) brings a rash on my strumming forearm so I think I must be allergic to the lacquer used on it (it's probably a thin layer of some poly as it's a matte finish). Some barrier cream applied before playing has sorted this (or long sleeves). Anyone get a similar reaction to any of their guitars? I don't have such problems, dodger. I think it's time you get another HB, just in case that rash gets too bad. I recently picked out a new pair of glasses and it got very itchy behind my ears which resulted into a bad rash, too. Solution? We've put adhesive tape around the bits that touch my ears, and problem is solved!
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Post by bigh on May 17, 2017 20:33:33 GMT
I'm all for poly finishes as they keep better over time and can be buffed to refresh, in my opinion nitro is terrible and ages poorly also, I don't mind think poly either as to be fair, the wood is dead and don't need to breath or any nonsense that purists say as truly the pickups and electronics is what you hear, not in anyway wood... flame 🔥 on so fire away guys! ( this is always a heated debate)
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