153 posts
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Post by r3v3nt0n on Jun 25, 2018 8:09:30 GMT
I have both guitars, a Harley Benton 450 PLus, with Wilkinson pickups, and a Vintage V100 MRPGM. Although MRPGM is a bit higher range than V100, (it could be compared to a HB 550) I do think it is really a in different leagu than HB 450 Plus. I have Vintage for over 8 months now, and the only thing i've changed were strings (after 6 months), and a bridge (which falls under warranty). Everything else on this guitar works, feels and sounds way better than on 450. It stays in tune for days, even weeks, sounds very good, quite unique, both unplugged and through an amplifier and it plays very well. It was also perfectly set up, delivered to my door. HB 450 Plus, on the other hand was a bit different story. First thing I did was to change strings, right away. Then I did a complete setup, from filling and cleaning rosewood fretboard, fret leveling and polishing and changing nut for a Graphtech one. Stock bridge was realy low quality and I've changed all hardware to Gotoh. I have now aluminum tailpiece, which changes the sound a bit. I've just recently changed tunning keys, also to Gotoh, though it wasn't really necessary, but tuning stability is better now. The Wilkinson stock ceramic pickups(MWCHB)were OK sounding, but I wanted something that sounds a bit more vintage. I've just changed the magnet bars in these pickups for a alnico 4 in the bridge position and alnico 2 in the neck. The whole cost of HB 450 pLus, with all upgrades, is now about 275 euros, which doesn't include working hours, for setup.
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Post by Banana on Jun 25, 2018 10:12:20 GMT
Paradise Flame had same pickups as CST-24T, Alnico V magnets, ~15k resistance in the bridge
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34 posts
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Post by mitchmacblues on Jun 25, 2018 10:31:20 GMT
I think there is another substantial difference between the SC450 and the SC550, which is the neck profile: in the SC450 the neck is "C-shape neck", I understand similar to a 50s neck, whereas the SC550 features a "60s neck", which I understand is thinner. I think this is the neck type of the high end Epiphone Les Pauls.
I personally prefer the thicker 50s neck (it is so comfortable in the SC450!, it makes me play better) to the thinner one, which is also fine. But I think it's a matter of taste. For this category I would personally choose the SC450 over the more expensive alternatives.
Leo Thunder was also referring to the nut as an important feature. I believe it is crucial for tuning stability. A poorly cut plastic nut (and you can find them even in Gibsons!!) can destroy your playing experience by going out of tune if you're playing lead with bendings. I believe the bone nut in the SC550 (as well as the Vintage V100 graphite or the great Cort CR200-CR250 Nubone) is clearly superior than the SC450 one.
For tuning stability, the combination of nut+tuners (and also the bridge, but I think all these guitars have decent bridges) makes an essential difference. In the SC450 for blues soloing you really need to put some pencil graphite or lubricant in the 2nd or 3rd string -just as I have to do in my Epiphone SG G-400 PRO. With this (cheap) trick you can stand a rehearsal or a gig with small tuning problems. I have to say I have been very impressed the other day at my guitar store by the super rock-solid tuning stability of the PRO Epiphone LP Standards (which feature a well cut plastic nut and Grover tuners). I think the SC550, CR200s, V100s and Epi LP PRO have an edge in tuning stability over the more economical SC450 (or the SG G400), but the SC450 is also decent. That's an important area where you feel the impact of cost savings. Or you can just change the nut and put a TUSQ one for 10€ (plus the luthier cost or your own effort).
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34 posts
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Post by mitchmacblues on Jun 25, 2018 11:01:36 GMT
Thank you r3v3nt0n, the comparison with the V100 PGM (I understand the "Peter Green-Gary Moore" tribute with the inverted pickup) is very interesting. I have tried the V100s in a store and indeed they are better in tuning stability than the SC450.
Another important issue with the SC450 vs the Vintage is indeed the setup. I had also to polish all the frets and change the rotten strings. (I dared to play with the original strings and I injured my pinky finger for three days, agh).
I don't know whether the SC550s also need such intensive setups, but I imagine most Harley Bentons need some setting up. My latest 2018 CST24 (B-Stock) badly needed a truss rod adjustment as it was buzzing heavily in the first frets, but the fretwork was much more polished than my 2017 SC450.
The need of a setup is why I would say the HBs are not really guitars for beginners, but rather attractively-priced "just-try-this-guitar" for intermediates-advanced players. I would say that after my so-so experience with a 90s Gibson Les Paul Studio I would not have bought another Les Paul-style guitar, but the very attractive price of the SC450 (no brainer!) made me try. And I am extremely satisfied, I think it is one of the best guitar buys I have ever made. I still keep it stock without mods and love to play it at home over more expensive guitars, although the tuning stability issues and image (some club owners and audience members disapprove of anything other than Gibson or Fender) prevent me from using it more onstage. All Bentons and Corts still share this disadvantages no matter how good they are (Epiphones a little less, they are more or less tolerated in light of the prohibitive Gibson prices), although I'm not sure how well do the Vintages fare in this regard.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2018 11:07:36 GMT
whereas the SC550 features a "60s neck", which I understand is thinner. You are correct about the SC-450+ but the SC-550 has a MUCH thinner neck than the 60's C. Its has very much modern profile feeling and too small for my average hand size! I sold my SC-550 because of that very thin neck!
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3,457 posts
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Post by LeoThunder on Jun 25, 2018 11:41:49 GMT
I really wish Thomann would provide measurements for their neck profiles. The shape alone is not enough and people finding adjectives does not say anything useful.
My SC-Custom was thin enough, thinner than the ST-62, thicker than an Ibanez Wizard neck. I think it was 21 mm thick at the 1st fret and 23 at the 12th. I measured it once but cannot find it again. The ST-62 is 22,5 and 23,5 mm at the same spots.
The cutting of the nut is important for the action. Cut too deep and the action needs to be raised to avoid buzzing. Cut too high and open chords will be a pain in the fingers. I suppose too tight is not so often an issue, is easier to fix (can't be made too wide) and if a pencil solves it, then I really wonder why people would even worry about it.
"Reviewers" like to go on (an on) about tuners and plastic nuts without exactly knowing what they are complaining about. The day I hear one say "this nut needs fixing or replacing because the string angle is impossible", I'll take them seriously but any prejudiced spec' reader speaking about "not being quite sure what this material is, it's probably better replaced anyway" ought to remain quiet. Either they see a fault and should mention it or they don't.
When I got my ST-62, the vibrato would put it out of tune. I could hear the strings squeak when using it and I soon found out it stopped when I took them away from underneath the string trees. I cleaned the strings, the trees, put some Vaseline at the contact point and my cheap guitar was fine, stable as a Floyd Rose without the hassle (I might be exaggerating this, but you get the idea). The nut is fine, whatever it is.
There's a smart gadget called a "string butler" for Gibson headstocks. It replaces the angles with some rolling parts.
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3,457 posts
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Post by LeoThunder on Jun 25, 2018 11:56:02 GMT
The need of a setup is why I would say the HBs are not really guitars for beginners, but rather attractively-priced "just-try-this-guitar" for intermediates-advanced players. All guitars I had in my hands required a set-up, except one I bought used. All others had safely high action. I saw someone review a brand new Fender Player the other day and say it had required a truss rod adjustment before he could do anything. I consider this kind of set-up, which is purely fine tuning, just as basic as tuning the guitar itself and beginners should learn to do it. This is like setting the saddle height on your bike and about as easy. I am not talking about "destructive" fret levelling which is something a finished product should never require.
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34 posts
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Post by mitchmacblues on Jun 25, 2018 12:33:20 GMT
Indeed, a truss rod adjustment is not that difficult and can be done by a novice with some patience and the help of youtube, although I had always heard people from guitar stores (and other players) tell me "never touch a truss rod, you can break the neck if you don't do it properly, leave it to a luthier". And understanding that a bothersome buzz or difficulty in making bendings can be solved by adjusting the truss rod requires some experience, in my opinion.
What can be quite problematic for a novice is having to deal with sharp or dirty frets, which used to be a disadvantage of quite a few HBs -I think now a lot less with the Vietnam-made guitars. But I have to say that none of my HBs needed fret levelling, only polishing. For me the worst putoff of a brand new guitar is if I have to level the frets.
And knowing that tuning stability (this squeak when tuning your strings) can be sometimes solved with the pencil trick is not that easy. These small tricks can make a world of a difference but are not that easily known for a novice. That is why a properly set up instrument is a most important aid for a beginning player. And for that most physical 'proximity' stores can have an edge over internet sales.
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3,457 posts
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Post by LeoThunder on Jun 25, 2018 12:39:23 GMT
These "novices" will learn chords and scales and worse. They can learn to think about angles or understand friction. Of course people who charge you for a set-up won't advise you to do it yourself. It's the last thing they can really sell and they mostly survive from their customer's fear to buy anything online.
Now, I would indeed be put off by the need to level frets. Still, I got a set of basic tools for about 5€ on ebay (fret file and protecting plates). A credit card will do as a fret rocker.
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