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Post by circletrack15 on Oct 28, 2018 17:54:00 GMT
Hey guys, can you please explain to me what these guitars are? I thought that B stock were playable guitars but had some flaws with paint, dents, minor things that a person like myself does care about. But I'am seeing a lot of non operational under the B stock claim and also decorative? I'am a little confused here to what the details are? Decorative to me means that it will Never! play normal and is just a piece of art to hang on your wall? I have emailed HB with no answer so I'am hoping someone here has actually bought one of these to tell me what this means? I have no problem buying a B stock guitar as many on Youtube have and they play just fine with only cosmetic issues, but now I don't know if I will do this because I want a guitar with a good neck that I can play? Don't care if the electronics are bad because I can fix that. Anyone have any experience with a Decorative Article Guitar? Thanks guys!
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Post by LeoThunder on Oct 28, 2018 19:16:18 GMT
I bought a Custom Line Nashville that had a sunken table under the pull of the strings on the bridge. I didn't know how to fix it so I sent it back. It wasn't playable, the bridge was leaning forward and the strings were buzzing like mad. I know some people have bought "deko" guitars that turned out just fine. I have no idea how they get selected. It's a bit of a gamble. I kept a picture of mine:
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2018 20:38:44 GMT
I had a few HB DEKO guitars and a bass and all were fine playable instruments! My experince of course. I know of others here who also had very good luck with Dekos!
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Post by salteedog on Oct 28, 2018 21:05:21 GMT
B-Stock are mostly returns or sometimes new guitars with small cosmetic imperfections.
Dekos - decoration only - are guitars that Thomann can not stand-over 100% as being functional. They may have issues that are obvious - such as Leo's example above - or they may have problems for which the resolution is not obvious. Thomann do not have a 'repair center' - it's not worth their while troubleshooting and fixing guitars that have play-ability or functional issues. In many cases those issues are very easily resolved. I have 3 dekos and none had any major problems. It's luck of the draw though.
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Post by LeoThunder on Oct 29, 2018 2:47:48 GMT
In addition to "deko" and B-Stock, Thomann are also selling faulty guitars on German ebay. They are identified as such and faults are described, ranging from cosmetic issues in the finish to serious damage. Often, these issues are a cracked or wavy neck, bad fretwork, faulty electronics… They sold Gibson with broken headstocks that way (with the headstock). These items all start at 1€ and often go up to silly prices, much higher than anything in the store's "deko" section. I used to think these ebay items would be worse than those of the deko section but the Nashville I bought had the exact same fault as one I had seen days earlier on ebay. It was not removed from the offer after I ordered it, not even after I received it. They had more than one. I suspect some of these, when they are Harley Benton, are batches of guitars with a generic problem. Several of them have been there for months which I take as probable confirmation. The ChinaGuitarSceptic bought and demonstrated one which had no discernible issues:
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Post by taurash on Nov 14, 2018 16:05:11 GMT
those deko guitars might be real bargains. Thses days, I see a SC custom FR for 168. Don't know what it's worth, if it's playable or not, but this thing comes with 6 grover tuners and an original Floyd Rose 1000. The grover tuners are worth at least 100€. The original floyd rose 1000 is worth around 200€ (source : floydrose.com). So even if the guitar cannot be played, if those pieces of equipment are working, it's definitely worth buying one
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Post by LeoThunder on Nov 14, 2018 16:21:18 GMT
The SC-Custom FR sells for 299€ new and there is some B Stock for 259.
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Post by taurash on Nov 15, 2018 5:41:36 GMT
The SC-Custom FR sells for 299€ new and there is some B Stock for 259. yeah, that's ok if you want to be sure that this guitars will work. If you wanna play, or if you just want to have a store for pieces of equipment that maybe will be playable, the Deko is 168€ I keep waiting for a non floyd rose SC Custom, just to have some grover tuners and a TOM bridge in stock, and why not try to disassemble it, work on it cos'I don't dare going very far on my guitars.
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Post by LeoThunder on Nov 15, 2018 6:18:43 GMT
The SC-Custom FR sells for 299€ new and there is some B Stock for 259. yeah, that's ok if you want to be sure that this guitars will work. If you wanna play, or if you just want to have a store for pieces of equipment that maybe will be playable, the Deko is 168€ I keep waiting for a non floyd rose SC Custom, just to have some grover tuners and a TOM bridge in stock, and why not try to disassemble it, work on it cos'I don't dare going very far on my guitars. If they are selling the B stock for 249€, then the Grover tuners and Floyd Rose are nowhere near 300€ in original value. They are not those you would get at that price. I will put more trust in a 2nd hand guitar on ebay than in any of these. The neck could be twisted or screws badly aligned (all it would take is a slightly misplaced body in a CNC machine). Now, I know some will just have faulty electronics needing some replacement and some will be just fine. Or maybe some will have had their packaging so damaged that only the contents are worth anything. I don't know The Nashville Steel I ordered as deko had a table too weak to withstand string tension and required skilled repair. They still have some.
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Post by taurash on Nov 15, 2018 6:38:11 GMT
yeah, that's ok if you want to be sure that this guitars will work. If you wanna play, or if you just want to have a store for pieces of equipment that maybe will be playable, the Deko is 168€ I keep waiting for a non floyd rose SC Custom, just to have some grover tuners and a TOM bridge in stock, and why not try to disassemble it, work on it cos'I don't dare going very far on my guitars. If they are selling the B stock for 249€, then the Grover tuners and Floyd Rose are nowhere near 300€ in original value. They are not those you would get at that price. I will put more trust in a 2nd hand guitar on ebay than in any of these. The neck could be twisted or screws badly aligned (all it would take is a slightly misplaced body in a CNC machine). Now, I know some will just have faulty electronics needing some replacement and some will be just fine. Or maybe some will have had their packaging so damaged that only the contents are worth anything. I don't know The Nashville Steel I ordered as deko had a table too weak to withstand string tension and required skilled repair. They still have some. I see your point, Leo, and I've had the same kind of thoughts. How the hell can they sell a guitar for 298€ when tuners + floyd rose = 300€ ? Well I guess we should not consider the price of these pieces of equipment the way we do. We are final customers. We pay the hard price, including Thomann's mergin. Now, if you are Harley Benton and order thousands of floyd roses and thousands of grover tuners, not only don't you pay the mergin, but you're likely to be able to negociate a price. Maybe they pay the tuners 30€ and the floyd rose 80€. Now, having a SC custom at home and having it checked by a luthier, I can certify thet the grover tuners are real grover tuners, and the TOM bridge is not a poor excuse for a bridge, though it's not a TonePros. It's as good as the original TonePros T3B-T I have on my LTD EC 1000. I don't have a SC custom FR, but I'm pretty sure the Floyd Rose 1000 is a real one, not a poor chinese copy. If I was needing a golden floyd rose, I would have ordered the Deko Sc custom FR. But my only guitar with floyd rose is still in a perfect shape, and if I needed to change the floyd rose, I would need a black one.
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Post by LeoThunder on Nov 15, 2018 6:53:53 GMT
If they are selling the B stock for 249€, then the Grover tuners and Floyd Rose are nowhere near 300€ in original value. They are not those you would get at that price. I will put more trust in a 2nd hand guitar on ebay than in any of these. The neck could be twisted or screws badly aligned (all it would take is a slightly misplaced body in a CNC machine). Now, I know some will just have faulty electronics needing some replacement and some will be just fine. Or maybe some will have had their packaging so damaged that only the contents are worth anything. I don't know The Nashville Steel I ordered as deko had a table too weak to withstand string tension and required skilled repair. They still have some. I see your point, Leo, and I've had the same kind of thoughts. How the hell can they sell a guitar for 298€ when tuners + floyd rose = 300€ ? Well I guess we should not consider the price of these pieces of equipment the way we do. We are final customers. We pay the hard price, including Thomann's mergin. This implies that the price of these parts to the "end customer" is an overblown farce. The whole after market business for guitar parts is utter luxury to the point where you can buy a Harley Benton push-pull pot for 9€ and a Göldo for 13. I had a SC-Custom with Grover tuners. They were fine but nothing different from those on my other guitars. They all work. Those on my cheap Harley Benton do not turn as nicely, that's right, but everything else, be it from Aria, Ibanez, Schecter or Squier is the same. Anything that has a name capitalises on it. Grover tuners, Big Name pick-ups, Special Name bridges are just bait. You get the same quality from Small Name for a lot less and junk from No Name You'll See Elsewhere. Be careful of that last one.
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Post by LeoThunder on Nov 15, 2018 9:14:55 GMT
Anything that has a name capitalises on it. Grover tuners, Big Name pick-ups, Special Name bridges are just bait. You get the same quality from Small Name for a lot less and junk from No Name You'll See Elsewhere. Be careful of that last one. Let me expand a little. Floyd Rose used to sell bridges. They couldn't fulfil demand so they licensed. It made at least part of the money they would have otherwise so it was better than not making it. As time passed, they retrieved some of that licensing, claiming "some of it failed to have the quality they aimed for". Let those who believe that be blessed, Germans would say. I believe Floyd Rose now had the means to fulfil demand and wanted to do it himself rather than sharing it with licensees. The talk of "lacking quality", true or not (and it must have been true in a couple of cases, how could it not be?) was mostly there to get the insecure to redirect their purchase to the original. As if the cook who invented the recipe was always the better one. He's not but people are easily convinced to pay a premium for a fantasised or implied advantage.
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Post by taurash on Nov 15, 2018 16:22:17 GMT
Several points to consider in your posts @leo_Thunder so I will try to reply them one after the other.
1- mergins. Yes, the price we pay is much more expensive than the price it costs. Remember what Lasse said in the interview he gave to Cory : Harley Benton guitars are much cheaper than any other brand, cos' any other brand has to pay Thomann to get the right to be sold through them. A classical estimation of this cost is it makes the price go X2, at least for guitars in a price range between 200 and 500€. Scandaleous ? I don't think so. Thomann has thousands of employees, a huge website, impressive logistics... All that's not for free.
2- brands and reputation : you're right about the fact that noname small brands may produce hi-quality materials. And you're also right about the fact that brands that have a big name are expensive and might sound overrated. Let's take Grover for an example. According to their website, the brand was created back in 1922. Now, they're the top dog in their business, and it's not for no reason. So, when you accept paying their price, you expect receiving high quality. As far as I'm concerned, I've never been disappointed with their tuners. Now, let's talk about another brand : Sperzel. The brand was created back in 1977, and had to make themself a place under the sun against Grover, Kluson, Gotoh and other brands that already had a name. In their early days, they were quickly recognized as making good quality. Were they cheap ? Ni idea, I wasn't playing guitar back then and I was 3 years old ^^ I guess they were cheaper, cos they needed to sell their tuners, ans their young reputation wasn't enough. Today, they're a little bit cheaper than Grover, but it's a 40 years old company, their name is made and didn't come out of nowhere. If you go to noname brands, maybe you can find some good stuff, and as you said, sometimes you buy lemons. When you go to a top brand, you also pay the face that the guys ahead of the company have fought through decades to make their reputation. They don't wanna ruin it so they will be very careful about quality. A brand that has no name has nothing to lose. If you pay 20€ for 6 tuners, you don't expect a high quality anyway. If you pay 100€, you don't accept low or even average quality. My opinion is : if I have to change tuners, I will consider the price of the guitar I bought and this will determine the price of the tuners. I have a LTD MH-100. I paid 299€ for it. Tuners were average and I thought I could find better. I went to HB locking tuners for 40€. It was a real improvement to the guitar. These locking tuners are not the best I've seen, but they keep the guitar in tune. When I have to retune / detune my MH-100, they don't turn very nicely, sometimes I make a quarter lap and nothing happens. But it's not a big issue. I believe this guitar will be pretty much out of order in 10 years. Now, if I had to change tuners on my LTD EC-1000, that costed me 800€ and already has grover tuners, I would keep the same brand. First because it's a much better guitar, and if I want to sell it, I can do it easily, under the condition that I don't downgrade it. Second because I think it will still be ok in 10 and even in 20 years, so I can put more money on it. I don't mind paying the price that's implied by tha name Grover, I know what I'm buying.
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Post by LeoThunder on Nov 15, 2018 16:29:42 GMT
Buy the Number One Brand and you pay a premium just for that. Gibson have quality issues too but they mostly get away with them because people want the brand. And tuners are not what makes a guitar go out of tune, by the way.
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