700 posts
YouTube Channel: ToroK Channel
Disclosures: See Signature
|
Post by taurash on Dec 16, 2019 7:43:14 GMT
Hi Bentoniacs I was just wondering which HB could be the best for metal ? I have tried the SC Custom but the pups were a bit weak. Now I have the SC-1000 and it works pretty well. A very cool thing is that it has active pups with the same plug-in system than EMGs. Though, maybe there are HBs I haven't think about and that could be very good working horses for metal work. What do you think ? C U Taurash
|
|
3,457 posts
|
Post by LeoThunder on Dec 16, 2019 10:47:43 GMT
How can pick-ups be weak if you are going to get them boosted through pedals and a gain stage anyway? Whatever qualities are required for the style, I doubt output level is one. I guess it was in the 70s, but no longer.
So what else is needed for "metal"? My guess would be clarity, to get some edge in there.
|
|
700 posts
YouTube Channel: ToroK Channel
Disclosures: See Signature
|
Post by taurash on Dec 16, 2019 13:47:44 GMT
Well, yes, output matters. If your pikcup is weak, you have to push the gain level, to add a booster, to bring a OD on... And this makes your sound go muddy and lack precision. Well, that's what I discovered with the SC custom, maybe it would not be true with some other pups. On the other side, when I use good pups with a high output level, I can put the gain down and have a better sound. This works with EMGs, Seymour Duncans, Schecter USA pickups... So maybe I'm wrong, but I think there's a relationship between a well defined gainy sound and the output level of the pickup you use. What else is needed for metal ? Playability, of course ! But I guess it works for any other genre
|
|
3,457 posts
|
Post by LeoThunder on Dec 16, 2019 14:01:22 GMT
And this makes your sound go muddy and lack precision. Well, that's what I discovered with the SC custom… This is where I say that the SC-Custom was muddy in the first place. It's not a matter of level. The Roswell LAF have that silly "round" castrated sound. Or do your higher output alternatives sound the same clean? I would bet they are sharper. The SC-1000 certainly is. I think the same goes for the SC-Custom Active, which I remember sounded fine clean. Not sure how it compares to the SC-1000.
|
|
3,457 posts
|
Post by LeoThunder on Dec 16, 2019 14:18:15 GMT
If your pickup is weak, you have to push the gain level, to add a booster, to bring a OD on... And this makes your sound go muddy and lack precision. It shouldn't make a difference. This is from the Fender web site: So raising the "gain", as its name itself says, only raises the input signal. Same as playing harder. Now, if you use a booster or some pedal that muddies the sound, it's another matter but the gain of a good amplifier shouldn't do that. And if the amp gets muddier at higher gain levels it will get just as muddy from higher output pick-ups.
|
|
700 posts
YouTube Channel: ToroK Channel
Disclosures: See Signature
|
Post by taurash on Dec 16, 2019 16:12:22 GMT
And this makes your sound go muddy and lack precision. Well, that's what I discovered with the SC custom… This is where I say that the SC-Custom was muddy in the first place. It's not a matter of level. The Roswell LAF have that silly "round" castrated sound. Or do your higher output alternatives sound the same clean? I would bet they are sharper. The SC-1000 certainly is. I think the same goes for the SC-Custom Active, which I remember sounded fine clean. Not sure how it compares to the SC-1000. Well, yes, the Roswell LAF alnico sounded muddy, and they became even muddier as the gain rose. In the other hand they had a nice dark sound on clean and crunch chans, with a lot of warmth but they were really not made for metal. I f I remember well, the Roswell active had such an insane output level that I couldn't even get anything clean. They were less muddy, for sure, but didn't have the sharpness of EMGs. On the SC-1000, I would say that I have find the best cheap active pups that HB offers. Sharp enough, hi output but not insanely high - a bit too much though, and if you have a noise gate, you can make something out of them. I'll make videos in a few days, it will be easier to explain. I remember, but that's far away in time, that the HWY 25 bks had those really cheap passive pups, looking like EMGs, but they sounded good. Now, back then, I only had my old Blackstar ID60TVP. Would I appreciate them on my HT-metal 5 or on my Bugera G5 ?
|
|
700 posts
YouTube Channel: ToroK Channel
Disclosures: See Signature
|
Post by taurash on Dec 16, 2019 16:17:00 GMT
If your pickup is weak, you have to push the gain level, to add a booster, to bring a OD on... And this makes your sound go muddy and lack precision. It shouldn't make a difference. This is from the Fender web site: So raising the "gain", as its name itself says, only raises the input signal. Same as playing harder. Now, if you use a booster or some pedal that muddies the sound, it's another matter but the gain of a good amplifier shouldn't do that. And if the amp gets muddier at higher gain levels it will get just as muddy from higher output pick-ups. It doesn't come from the amp. I have several guitars at home, and the other passive pups I use don't go muddier as the gain rises. I really think it came from the Roswell LAF Alnico. I mean : these are the only average low output pups I've played, and they were the only ones that had this "problem". So, I thought it could come from the output level, but as you said, the LAF Alnico are pretty muddy, so I think this solves the problem.
|
|
3,457 posts
|
Post by LeoThunder on Dec 16, 2019 16:21:08 GMT
I f I remember well, the Roswell active had such an insane output level that I couldn't even get anything clean. They were less muddy, for sure, but didn't have the sharpness of EMGs. Well you had to turn them down then. The good thing about active pick-ups, at least in theory, is that they do not have the impedance of passive ones and therefore ought to be less affected in tone by the volume drop. I am speculating here, only speaking from understanding, not experience but I suppose I'm right. It's a shame I do not have any guitar with active humbuckers. I could try it all out.
|
|
700 posts
YouTube Channel: ToroK Channel
Disclosures: See Signature
|
Post by taurash on Dec 16, 2019 16:33:44 GMT
I remember I did and that was better, but still a bit crunchy. Problem, when you turn the volume down, is to remeber exactly where you stopped, so you can find the exact same sound next time you play. You're right about the tone : it's not affected by the volume. That's a good point for active pups. But you can find some active pups that have a specific preamp setting that makes it impossible to have a clean sound. For instance : the Seymour Duncan Blacjout AHB-2. These things are monstrous. They give you the choice between Hi gain, very hi gain or insanely high gain. Way too much for me ! If you have the opportunity to get your hands on a guitar with active pups - I guess it would be a HB - I think you would have fun. So many possibilities with the plus-in system invented by EMG ! You can swap them in 5 minutes and have a huge variety of sounds.
|
|
|
Post by blindwilly3fingers on Dec 16, 2019 16:50:11 GMT
I believe the LAF's are 'vintage voiced' and are Roswell's attempt at recreating the Gibson PAF sounding pups. Which is most commonly used for blues/rock styles. As for best for metal pups I would presume the active pups are better but with all pickups its a matter of finding some that are a fit for what you are after. When you go and try guitars out in shops sometimes you can try 3 or 4 identical guitars that actually can sound quite different through the same amps and settings (on both the amp and guitar).
Now I'm far from an expert on any of this but there are a lot of things that can make pups sound different. By that. I'm talking strictly about the actual pups. Can manufacturers really guarantee the the exact properties/uniformity of all the materials used, wire, magnets etc.
Much like the feel of two supposedly identical guitars can appear different. I presume pups, pots,capacitors,wire, magnets etc can also vary while appearing identical.
Probably doesn't help but like lots of things supposedly built to the exact same tolerances/specs often there can be subtle or quite noticeable differences.
|
|
3,457 posts
|
Post by LeoThunder on Dec 17, 2019 10:26:55 GMT
Getting back on topic, what about this one?
|
|
3,457 posts
|
Post by LeoThunder on Dec 17, 2019 10:43:23 GMT
Browsing a little I find an Extreme 84 with active HBZ pick-ups which could be the same as on the SC-1000: With demo "Metal" sound at 13:25.
|
|
700 posts
YouTube Channel: ToroK Channel
Disclosures: See Signature
|
Post by taurash on Dec 17, 2019 15:06:44 GMT
I believe the LAF's are 'vintage voiced' and are Roswell's attempt at recreating the Gibson PAF sounding pups. Which is most commonly used for blues/rock styles. As for best for metal pups I would presume the active pups are better but with all pickups its a matter of finding some that are a fit for what you are after. When you go and try guitars out in shops sometimes you can try 3 or 4 identical guitars that actually can sound quite different through the same amps and settings (on both the amp and guitar). Now I'm far from an expert on any of this but there are a lot of things that can make pups sound different. By that. I'm talking strictly about the actual pups. Can manufacturers really guarantee the the exact properties/uniformity of all the materials used, wire, magnets etc. Much like the feel of two supposedly identical guitars can appear different. I presume pups, pots,capacitors,wire, magnets etc can also vary while appearing identical. Probably doesn't help but like lots of things supposedly built to the exact same tolerances/specs often there can be subtle or quite noticeable differences. Well, for sure, Roswell didn't design these LAF pups for metal About the way pups are made, you're right, all the components may create some tone variations. But really, that's very very light, except if you take two pickups that have the same reference but are made in two different factories. I have 3 EMG 81 at home, and using them on a same guitar produces no difference, at least no difference I can hear. Maybe it would be more obvious on some passive pups.
|
|
700 posts
YouTube Channel: ToroK Channel
Disclosures: See Signature
|
Post by taurash on Dec 17, 2019 15:14:58 GMT
Nice found LeoThunder, I didn't know about the HB Dullahan. I'm not a fan of headless guitars, but they look ready for metal. The EX 84 is, of course, completely made for metal and it's still a nice choice for Explorer fans. It's got the same HBZ pups than my SC 1000 but the neck is not satin, so it's a bit sticky. Apart from that, I remember it's a pretty good guitar. I'd love HB to make a super strat with an arched top body, something that would look like an ESP Horizon. The only guitar they sell and that looks like this is the S-620, and I have never tried it but I haven't read only good things about it. I'm afraid about the floyd rose vibrato, considering it's not a real floyd rose. But in blue, it's really beautiful !
|
|
3,457 posts
|
Post by LeoThunder on Dec 17, 2019 15:53:15 GMT
Would that Baritone-7SB DLX qualify as a "super Strat'? Pick-ups aren't the sharpest thing, though: I like the blue S-620 but pick-ups might lack clarity as well. I suppose active humbuckers are the only cheap way of getting this. They need less windings, implying less capacitance too. I wouldn't worry about the bridge. I believe the edge can be sharpened anew when the time comes.
|
|