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Post by hallon on Aug 18, 2020 7:17:56 GMT
I don't think HB are using Brazilian Jatoba more likely an Asian derivative? Like most timber species there are sub species of each which are slightly different. Again how the timber is harvested and prepared (kiln dried vs air dried, how its grown etc) also has an effect. Again with any wood stain, type water based vs oil/mineral based will have different effect on different timbers. I'm sure your all aware how wood properties vary even in the same species. A bit of research is often needed, again I'm sure most people know this. Tbh I've yet to find a light coloured timber that can't be stained or treated to darken it. Have you personally darkened any fretboards? If so what you do, oil, ink? |
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Post by hallon on Aug 18, 2020 7:20:08 GMT
The link calebz posted did not say waterproof. The indian ink you linked to did not say transparent. Or am i missing something? :/ What is the deal with "indian" ink, or is it just a name, and just the same as other types of ink? Yep, you missed the descriptions hallon : calebz link: About this item USING ONLY HIGH-QUALITY PIGMENT - Made from highly opaque, carbon black pigment OUTSTANDING PERFORMANCE - Offers excellent reproduction quality on absorbent surfaces WITHSTANDS FADING – Offers optimum lightfastness USE WITH A VARIETY OF TOOLS - Easily applied by pen, brush, steel brush or airbrush, Speedball’s India Ink is free-flowing, non-clogging and waterproofCONVENIENT SIZE – 2-Ounce plastic jar My link: It is water resistant and transparentCan be applied with brush, dip pen or airbrush Fast drying and have adhesion on most of the surfaces Hmm, strange, I don't see that text on the website. Might be my phone browser that doesn't support proper scripts or something Edit: I see now!  |
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Post by blindwilly3fingers on Aug 18, 2020 10:15:44 GMT
I haven't dyed a fretboard but have done quite a lot of furniture repair, French polishing etc. There are lots of stains/dyes commercially available. The thing with stains/dyes is although it's stated a certain shade/colour on the tin/bottle it depends on the wood what the final colour will be. Sometimes you have to mix stains/colours, unfortunately you haven't really got an hidden area or offcut you can use as a test piece. I'm not trying to be doom and gloom just cautionary as it can be a nightmare to put right if you over do it. As already suggested the India ink or most stains work just dependant what colour is desired. Iron acetate (white vinegar and wire wool/old nails) is good for darkening as you can apply several coats to gradually darken the wood. It's not difficult hallon and I'm not suggesting I'm a know all expert on staining wood. Just check what your using is suitable and if you can try it out on some scrap wood. |
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Post by blindwilly3fingers on Aug 18, 2020 10:52:33 GMT
Just to add to the previous post, I should have explained that some stains/dyes actually sit on top of the wood like paint others penetrate into the wood. Again which type you use will affect the final colour.
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Post by hallon on Aug 18, 2020 13:01:23 GMT
Just to add to the previous post, I should have explained that some stains/dyes actually sit on top of the wood like paint others penetrate into the wood. Again which type you use will affect the final colour. Thanks for info. Indian ink, sounds like it would sit on top, rather than penetrate. Pros and cons sitting on top vs penetrate? I guess on top would make it easier to remove if not satisfied. Penetrate would look better... |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2020 13:20:40 GMT
It really depends on the finish and porosity of the wood as to whether stuff will be absorbed of just wipe off hallon. I have some rosewood boards that would seem to shed anything that was wiped on them. Certainly anything that's been treated with oils will have a job clinging on to stains of any kind. Others, boards that look really dry, would be strong contenders for successful staining...even carefully diluted staining in case it is TOO successfully absorbent! |
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Post by blindwilly3fingers on Aug 18, 2020 13:32:09 GMT
Just to add to the previous post, I should have explained that some stains/dyes actually sit on top of the wood like paint others penetrate into the wood. Again which type you use will affect the final colour. Thanks for info. Indian ink, sounds like it would sit on top, rather than penetrate. Pros and cons sitting on top vs penetrate? A lot depends on how much tannins the wood has? And how dark you want the final colour to be. Belive it or not you can add tannin by using a solution of tea as a pre wash, this helps the stain get into the grain. You apply the tea let it almost dry then apply the stain. Do you want an ebony looking finish or just dark brown? If you dilute the stain you can do it gradually. As you know You can always add more but it can be difficult to get the desired colour if you go to dark to start with. You can also add simple food dye to diluted iron acetate to and some lighter stains to make different shades. It all depends if your looking for a five minute 'that will do' finish. Or your prepared to take the time to get a colour you really want. We all have different ideas/opinions (none totally wrong or right). I just wouldn't want someone to end up having a finish they are not happy with. Over cautious maybe but I know how gutting it feels when result isn't the desired one. Also worth remembering water based stain can leave the wood looking dry or greyish when dried but once mineral oil/fretboard conditioner is applied you get the full depth of colour. Apologies if I've waffled on and you knew this already. |
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Post by calebz on Aug 18, 2020 14:03:29 GMT
It really depends on the finish and porosity of the wood as to whether stuff will be absorbed of just wipe off hallon . I have some rosewood boards that would seem to shed anything that was wiped on them. Certainly anything that's been treated with oils will have a job clinging on to stains of any kind. Others, boards that look really dry, would be strong contenders for successful staining...even carefully diluted staining in case it is TOO successfully absorbent! I'll add to this - Jatoba (at least the kind used on HB guitars), doesn't take India ink the same way other woods do. I've done maple with ink and the end result was black. I've done three jatoba fretboards with a few different types of prep and they've all come out a rosewood and coffee type brownish. |
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Post by blindwilly3fingers on Aug 18, 2020 14:39:17 GMT
It really depends on the finish and porosity of the wood as to whether stuff will be absorbed of just wipe off hallon . I have some rosewood boards that would seem to shed anything that was wiped on them. Certainly anything that's been treated with oils will have a job clinging on to stains of any kind. Others, boards that look really dry, would be strong contenders for successful staining...even carefully diluted staining in case it is TOO successfully absorbent! I'll add to this - Jatoba (at least the kind used on HB guitars), doesn't take India ink the same way other woods do. I've done maple with ink and the end result was black. I've done three jatoba fretboards with a few different types of prep and they've all come out a rosewood and coffee type brownish. I wasn't opposing the use of India ink, far from it but as already posted there are various India inks. The one you used calebz obviously works but @defjef posted a different one. The words opaque and transparent were then mentioned, obviously the two are quite different. I just wanted to point out the various factors that could affect the final colour. And possibly it might be wise to dilute the ink/stain/dye to gradually obtain the desired colour. |
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Post by calebz on Aug 18, 2020 14:56:24 GMT
I'll add to this - Jatoba (at least the kind used on HB guitars), doesn't take India ink the same way other woods do. I've done maple with ink and the end result was black. I've done three jatoba fretboards with a few different types of prep and they've all come out a rosewood and coffee type brownish. I wasn't opposing the use of India ink, far from it but as already posted there are various India inks. The one you used calebz obviously works but @defjef posted a different one. The words opaque and transparent were then mentioned, obviously the two are quite different. I just wanted to point out the various factors that could affect the final colour. And possibly it might be wise to dilute the ink/stain/dye to gradually obtain the desired colour. I'm glad someone caught the waterproof thing in the one I posted - especially since I ended my first post advising against it..lol The india ink I used was non-waterproof. unfortunately, I don't remember the brand. In general, I agree with you. If I was working with pine or maple (and using ink), I would consider dilution. Jatoba (as used by HB) doesn't go full black - something to consider when deciding how dark to go. |
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Post by blindwilly3fingers on Aug 18, 2020 16:51:37 GMT
A couple of pics of my 550 (jatoba fretboard). I do wonder if the Jatoba used in Vietnam & Chinese madw HB guitars varies? I was lucky and have a fairly dark Jatoba. I know it varies from which part of the tree it comes from as Donut posted. I have a friend who has an Ibanez that has a quite light Jatoba fretboard calebz were all the ones you dyed light in colour? As a side point I was in a guitar shop a few weeks back looking at some Fenders that had pau ferro and they were all colours!   |
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Post by hallon on Aug 21, 2020 17:52:19 GMT
It really depends on the finish and porosity of the wood as to whether stuff will be absorbed of just wipe off hallon. I have some rosewood boards that would seem to shed anything that was wiped on them. Certainly anything that's been treated with oils will have a job clinging on to stains of any kind. Others, boards that look really dry, would be strong contenders for successful staining...even carefully diluted staining in case it is TOO successfully absorbent! I get a feeling without any experience and knowledge whatsoever that my jatoba fretboard will not easily absorb anything. I am not too concerned if it would become too dark. A dark fretboard is always nice. |
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Post by hallon on Aug 21, 2020 18:00:24 GMT
Thanks for info. Indian ink, sounds like it would sit on top, rather than penetrate. Pros and cons sitting on top vs penetrate? A lot depends on how much tannins the wood has? And how dark you want the final colour to be. Belive it or not you can add tannin by using a solution of tea as a pre wash, this helps the stain get into the grain. You apply the tea let it almost dry then apply the stain. Do you want an ebony looking finish or just dark brown? If you dilute the stain you can do it gradually. As you know You can always add more but it can be difficult to get the desired colour if you go to dark to start with. You can also add simple food dye to diluted iron acetate to and some lighter stains to make different shades. It all depends if your looking for a five minute 'that will do' finish. Or your prepared to take the time to get a colour you really want. We all have different ideas/opinions (none totally wrong or right). I just wouldn't want someone to end up having a finish they are not happy with. Over cautious maybe but I know how gutting it feels when result isn't the desired one. Also worth remembering water based stain can leave the wood looking dry or greyish when dried but once mineral oil/fretboard conditioner is applied you get the full depth of colour. Apologies if I've waffled on and you knew this already. Wow some expert knowledge right there, thanks. This actually makes me a little hesitant wether or not a clumsy ignorant like myself should even try to do something like this on my own, lol. So if I would apply some waterbased ink, I could then, after it dries apply oil (what kind of oil?) and it would most likely become even darker and enhance the waterbased ink? |
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Post by hallon on Aug 21, 2020 18:02:15 GMT
It really depends on the finish and porosity of the wood as to whether stuff will be absorbed of just wipe off hallon . I have some rosewood boards that would seem to shed anything that was wiped on them. Certainly anything that's been treated with oils will have a job clinging on to stains of any kind. Others, boards that look really dry, would be strong contenders for successful staining...even carefully diluted staining in case it is TOO successfully absorbent! I'll add to this - Jatoba (at least the kind used on HB guitars), doesn't take India ink the same way other woods do. I've done maple with ink and the end result was black. I've done three jatoba fretboards with a few different types of prep and they've all come out a rosewood and coffee type brownish. What kind of prep did you do, which would you say was the most successful way to do it? |
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Post by hallon on Aug 21, 2020 18:39:27 GMT
I wasn't opposing the use of India ink, far from it but as already posted there are various India inks. The one you used calebz obviously works but @defjef posted a different one. The words opaque and transparent were then mentioned, obviously the two are quite different. I just wanted to point out the various factors that could affect the final colour. And possibly it might be wise to dilute the ink/stain/dye to gradually obtain the desired colour. I'm glad someone caught the waterproof thing in the one I posted - especially since I ended my first post advising against it..lol The india ink I used was non-waterproof. unfortunately, I don't remember the brand. In general, I agree with you. If I was working with pine or maple (and using ink), I would consider dilution. Jatoba (as used by HB) doesn't go full black - something to consider when deciding how dark to go. I prefer quite dark, and as blindwilly3fingers suggested if not dark enough adding some oil might make it darker after ink has been applied. |
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