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Post by blindwilly3fingers on Apr 2, 2019 18:22:58 GMT
As you your self have said Leo HB's are OK if you don't mind having to do a set up or minor improvements. I can't see HB competing with the middle or upper range guitars or being as desirable. No, but they are already competing with the Affinity line. Should the ST-62 or the TE-52 go away, I could see people buying them at their former new price or even more rather than paying for an Affinity. Something similar could happen for the SC-550 or several of the basses like the JB-75 or the fretless JB-40. So you are talking 2nd hand sales? I don't know how the prices compare for St 62 vs affinity? I would purchase either if they were in good condition. People who don't have prior knowledge of HB's may be more biased towards the affinity as its a well known brand. I think for those of us that have good knowledge of HB's appreciate they are good (even if you have to do work on them). I'm not so sure about those who don't and have seen the negative stuff about HB's are as likely to take the gamble.
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Post by Vincent on Apr 2, 2019 18:36:57 GMT
How long have HB been a brand? 20 years? It's a budget brand albeit producing some good guitars. But and it's a big BUT they are basically copies, can't see them ever having a stand at NAMM or the like. It would be interesting to know how many HB's are sold in comparison to Squier, Cort, Vintage or similar brands. I am seeing many more HB guitars reviewed on youtube these days compared to two or three years ago. The guitar gear youtube personalities want views and HBs appear to be a way of getting them. Harley Benton stands at future NAMMs? Why not.
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Post by blindwilly3fingers on Apr 2, 2019 18:44:29 GMT
How long have HB been a brand? 20 years? It's a budget brand albeit producing some good guitars. But and it's a big BUT they are basically copies, can't see them ever having a stand at NAMM or the like. It would be interesting to know how many HB's are sold in comparison to Squier, Cort, Vintage or similar brands. I am seeing many more HB guitars reviewed on youtube these days compared to two or three years ago. The guitar gear youtube personalities want views and HBs appear to be a way of getting them. Harley Benton stands at future NAMMs? Why not. Would Thomann do NAMM? I don't know which smaller brands attend? HB is a house brand out sourced and I know you can say Squier and Epiphone are outsourced as far as being built but they are instrument companies. This is one of those debates than can go off on all sorts of tangents. 😁
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Post by LeoThunder on Apr 2, 2019 19:04:17 GMT
No, but they are already competing with the Affinity line. Should the ST-62 or the TE-52 go away, I could see people buying them at their former new price or even more rather than paying for an Affinity. Something similar could happen for the SC-550 or several of the basses like the JB-75 or the fretless JB-40. So you are talking 2nd hand sales? I don't know how the prices compare for St 62 vs affinity? I am talking about people spending 120€ on a used ST-62 (its new price) rather than 200 on a new Affinity. This is what "sought after" means, when people are willing to pay its former new price (or more) for a used item.
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Post by kodiakblair on Apr 2, 2019 19:09:13 GMT
Do Vintage or Cort have NAMM stands? Aren't they basically copies too? Wonder if it might be worth Thomann being there with HBs. Both have stands at NAMM and have done for years. No point in Thomann having an HB stand. NAMM is a showcase for instrument builders hoping to attract distributors and stores,not the place for in-house brands.
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Post by blindwilly3fingers on Apr 2, 2019 19:46:47 GMT
So you are talking 2nd hand sales? I don't know how the prices compare for St 62 vs affinity? I am talking about people spending 120€ on a used ST-62 (its new price) rather than 200 on a new Affinity. This is what "sought after" means, when people are willing to pay its former new price (or more) for a used item. Can't see your argument there? You can't say a 2nd hand guitar is better value than new one. 2nd hand you have no guarantee or returns. There are very few HB's 2nd hand in UK compared to other brands. But if I'm buying new I'm not going to say that a 2nd St62 is more desirable.
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Post by LeoThunder on Apr 2, 2019 20:33:18 GMT
I am talking about people spending 120€ on a used ST-62 (its new price) rather than 200 on a new Affinity. This is what "sought after" means, when people are willing to pay its former new price (or more) for a used item. Can't see your argument there? You can't say a 2nd hand guitar is better value than new one. 2nd hand you have no guarantee or returns. There are very few HB's 2nd hand in UK compared to other brands. But if I'm buying new I'm not going to say that a 2nd St62 is more desirable. I am talking of what could happen after the product's lifetime, when it cannot be purchased new any longer. I have seen Copper SC-450 sell for more on ebay than their new price since they were discontinued.
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Post by johnnyo on Apr 2, 2019 20:50:22 GMT
I read that so-called "lawsuit" Ibanez, which were copies too, are sought after. I do not expect Harley Benton to ever command strong prices but I could see some of them become some sort of special bargain people would look for and prefer to their Squier or Epiphone equivalents. Also for example vintage tokais
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Post by kodiakblair on Apr 2, 2019 21:34:55 GMT
I read that so-called "lawsuit" Ibanez, which were copies too, are sought after. I do not expect Harley Benton to ever command strong prices but I could see some of them become some sort of special bargain people would look for and prefer to their Squier or Epiphone equivalents. Also for example vintage tokais You'd expect to see old Tokais go for big bucks,they're worth it. Mid 80's I was looking for a P-bass. Headed to London's Denmark Street. 8 extremely average USA Fenders later I played a Hard Puncher . Blew the Fenders away in every aspect. Any time I play one I smile. Took me near 35 year before I'd consider Fender again. Not that Fender can't make a good guitar,more I don't have time or patience to sort through the pile to find the good one.
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Post by blindwilly3fingers on Apr 2, 2019 22:05:07 GMT
Can't see your argument there? You can't say a 2nd hand guitar is better value than new one. 2nd hand you have no guarantee or returns. There are very few HB's 2nd hand in UK compared to other brands. But if I'm buying new I'm not going to say that a 2nd St62 is more desirable. I am talking of what could happen after the product's lifetime, when it cannot be purchased new any longer. I have seen Copper SC-450 sell for more on ebay than their new price since they were discontinued. You may have a point there depending how many were made. Rarity can obviously add value. There are not many HB's for sale on UK Ebay. From your posts I detect there are quite a few on German other European ebay sites. Which is why I asked about sales numbers. I have had a little look for sales of guitars by brand but actual hard data appears rarer than rocking horse ****!
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Post by Vincent on Apr 2, 2019 22:41:08 GMT
Do Vintage or Cort have NAMM stands? Aren't they basically copies too? Wonder if it might be worth Thomann being there with HBs. Both have stands at NAMM and have done for years. No point in Thomann having an HB stand. NAMM is a showcase for instrument builders hoping to attract distributors and stores,not the place for in-house brands. What about about Chapman Guitars? Similar business model. I don't think there are many shops that you can walk into and buy one. Thomann began from being a tiny family music shop in Germany to become this mega store that it is now. Their history demonstrates to me that they are a very forward thinking company. It would not surprise me at all to see Thomann products at NAMM in the future.
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Post by LeoThunder on Apr 3, 2019 3:27:06 GMT
I am talking of what could happen after the product's lifetime, when it cannot be purchased new any longer. I have seen Copper SC-450 sell for more on ebay than their new price since they were discontinued. You may have a point there depending how many were made. Rarity can obviously add value. There are not many HB's for sale on UK Ebay. From your posts I detect there are quite a few on German other European ebay sites. Which is why I asked about sales numbers. I have had a little look for sales of guitars by brand but actual hard data appears rarer than rocking horse ****! I see enough HB on German ebay. I bought 6 of them there. I saw two Copper SC-450 go one for almost and the other slightly above its former new price of 129€. The GT has now been raised to 149€ by Thomann but I guess the Copper was discontinued because it sold a lot less and retains that value because of that. It's the slightly special one. The same would go for the failed SC-7 and TE-7. These complete oddballs are original models, not copies of something popular. I wouldn't expect to see them fetch their original 300€ but their final 200 is a possibility. It remains a small price for boasting of having something weird no one else does.
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Post by kodiakblair on Apr 3, 2019 5:32:35 GMT
Both have stands at NAMM and have done for years. No point in Thomann having an HB stand. NAMM is a showcase for instrument builders hoping to attract distributors and stores,not the place for in-house brands. What about about Chapman Guitars? Similar business model. I don't think there are many shops that you can walk into and buy one. Thomann began from being a tiny family music shop in Germany to become this mega store that it is now. Their history demonstrates to me that they are a very forward thinking company. It would not surprise me at all to see Thomann products at NAMM in the future. I know of at least 4 stores in the UK that stock Chapman guitars and it's a completely different business model. Rob's line is extra revenue based on his YT popularity Some folks here place more importance on HB than Thomann. Out of 99296 products 1500 are Harley Benton,just over 1.5%.
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Post by LeoThunder on Apr 3, 2019 6:10:37 GMT
Some folks here place more importance on HB than Thomann. Out of 99296 products 1500 are Harley Benton,just over 1.5%. And I doubt they are making all that much money with them. I could see that happening with the new "pro" models, the Fusion guitars and Enhanced basses they sell for twice the price of the rest, but even that is questionable. All I ever bought (and kept) from them were cases, strings, stands, cables, picks, a string winder and a cheap clip-on tuner… I feel like I ought to buy at least one guitar new but then I realise it's just an excuse to indulge in yet another purchase Thomann have been big for a long time. Harley Benton guitars became a thing with HP42's videos from late 2014, definitely not before. I suppose these are what started it: He had gathered a following by reviewing the Harley Benton (Joyo) pedals before but this guy saying in a convincing way that cheap Telecaster, Strat', Les Paul copies were not just acceptable but really good made a splash that rippled over to more YouTubers. Nick in the States and Cory Mura followed in early 2015: I suppose that bit of history explains why he has a Harley Benton signature model that will never make Thomann any money.
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Post by LeoThunder on Apr 3, 2019 6:28:15 GMT
What about about Chapman Guitars? Similar business model. I don't think there are many shops that you can walk into and buy one. Thomann began from being a tiny family music shop in Germany to become this mega store that it is now. Their history demonstrates to me that they are a very forward thinking company. It would not surprise me at all to see Thomann products at NAMM in the future. I know of at least 4 stores in the UK that stock Chapman guitars and it's a completely different business model. Rob's line is extra revenue based on his YT popularity It is funny how Rob Chapman is the reason I am here. I had picked-up my guitar again in summer 2017 and was watching Justin, learning things. I somehow started looking around and came upon those great looking Chapman guitars. I really like their modernised look, never been the "vintage" type. I got interested enough to want to know what they cost and where to buy one. The Chapman site listed one German distributor, some Thomann somewhere in the middle of nothing. But they had a big web site… It led to my noticing Harley Benton, cheap brand immediately categorised as such and left aside. I started browsing Ibanez on ebay but that Harley Benton name kept coming up at prices comparable to the GIO line and I wanted to know more. That's how I found the videos and they were saying that the cheap thing was actually a good thing. These guys, Henning, Nick and Cory, made me want to buy a Strat' and a Les Paul. And at that price, there was no reason to choose, I could have both. So I never bought a Chapman. Sorry Rob Maybe the next time I make a good chunk of money, I'll buy a Chapman Pro from Thomann.
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