|
Post by blindwilly3fingers on Aug 8, 2019 9:31:37 GMT
It is worth noting regarding setting up a guitar or other manual tasks, like changing a car battery. That the person need to be practically able and have the hand skills required to complete the task. Before you tell me it's nonsense and anyone can learn these skills. Wake up and don't be a wally. Whether they struggle with comprehension, cognitive, psycho motor skills or dexterity etc (I can list many other things). I spent well over 25 years teaching people craft/trade areas (both practical and theoretical) . With out going into individual cases, some people just don't have the skills required. While some understand the theory they are poor manually and vice versa. This is no disgrace, not everyone is a world class micro surgeon or a musical genius.
|
|
DefJef
THBC Moderator
Due to musical differences I've decided I can't work with myself any more.
|
Post by DefJef on Aug 8, 2019 10:24:28 GMT
They do say anyone can learn any skill with enough hours of practice. But I know there are certain things that I could never be interested in enough to put those hours in. So if I'm starting from a very low natural ability in something, those few hours that I do put in won't put me anywhere near the ability of someone who seems to have a natural instinct for it. I have two sons who have just learned to drive and their approach, natural ability, and end results are very different. Then, as you say blindwilly3fingers , there is that connectivity between brain and fine motor skills. I have a mate who has spent all his life being accident prone. He's had plenty of hours of practice to try not to be but I can see an accident coming well before he commits it. I'm forever helping him avoid them. I have no idea whether it is his sight, his body control, his cognitive abilities, his confidence, his multitasking brain. Absolutely not a clue what leads to the next cable trip or bust piece of equipment but I know it's coming. My personal fatal flaw could well be thinking I can do something that I can't. I'm fine with that if it won't lead to injury or unsustainable monetary loss. Fortunately I can normally think a way out of a problem and sort it but I have more recently learned to doubt myself a bit sometimes when it's clear I would be mad to overstretch myself. No one else is going to tell me not to risk poking a screwdriver into an amplifier. I have to tell myself. Even after a lot of reading I am never certain that I am not the perfect path to ground.
|
|
|
Post by blindwilly3fingers on Aug 8, 2019 10:57:19 GMT
Yes DefJef there are some that things that can be learned with years and years of practice. I from my personal experience have generally found with students, those that pick up techniques quickly go on to be more successful. Whether that is physical or mental has been debated by psychologista educational/behavioural theorists at great length. Who are better versed than those like myself 'at the coalface' trying to teach those techniques. While I had to study the above mentioned theories and learned an immense amount. It still to a certain extent comes down to 'you can lead a hoarse to water, but you can't make it drink'. I have worked with people that all to frequently used the 'there is no such word as can't'. This is so wrong as some people just can't. Yes in theory I can train a 30 stone man to loose weight and implement exercise to improve his physical ability. There is no guarantee I can train him to run 100m in less than 15 seconds, or successfully use a soldering iron. I think like most things to do anything we'll or to the highest standard. The individual needs a certain amount of natural ability as well as the mental ability. Yes you can teach/train to improve those abilites but not all will be of the same standard.
|
|
|
3,457 posts
|
Post by LeoThunder on Aug 8, 2019 11:56:49 GMT
You're not about to sell that Jaguar are you LeoThunder ? That's always when my batteries die, just as I am thinking of selling. Absolutely not. I'm not sure how many Harley Benton guitars I could get for it but it wouldn't be enough and it would be a terrific bargain for the buyer. I hope to keep it for many more years.
|
|
3,457 posts
|
Post by LeoThunder on Aug 8, 2019 11:59:42 GMT
It is worth noting regarding setting up a guitar or other manual tasks, like changing a car battery. That the person need to be practically able and have the hand skills required to complete the task. No. The person needs to know that there is such a thing and that it makes a significant difference. Who does it doesn't matter. If I have to pay someone 50€ to make a 200€ guitar play like a 1000€ Fender I'm still the benefiting one. So in both cases, what we see are people believing that a Fender is a better guitar when they actually are buying some expensive set-up (maybe) and ignorants who assume that a certain brand is bad because they don't know batteries die.
|
|
|
Post by blindwilly3fingers on Aug 8, 2019 12:01:51 GMT
Yes I agree with you DefJef, there has to be a certain amount of desire/motivation as well as natural and for some things physical ability. We all have limitations, added to this a natural leaning in some cases. I have know very intelligent people that if you put a chisel in their hand, would be a danger to everything and everyone around them.
|
|
|
Post by blindwilly3fingers on Aug 8, 2019 12:06:10 GMT
It is worth noting regarding setting up a guitar or other manual tasks, like changing a car battery. That the person need to be practically able and have the hand skills required to complete the task. No. The person needs to know that there is such a thing and that it makes a significant difference. Who does it doesn't matter. If I have to pay someone 50€ to make a 200€ guitar play like a 1000€ Fender I'm still the benefiting one. I bow to your superior knowledge, as always you are 100% right. It is the rest of us fools that don't meet your standards.
|
|
3,968 posts
|
Post by salteedog on Aug 8, 2019 12:26:36 GMT
Yeah, construction is of course way better on the Gibson. Also how it feels to play. I must always wonder how much of that is in the skills put into the set-up. Sure, some blunders cannot be easily fixed, if at all. A warped neck, a bad angle, a wrongly positioned bridge are just bad luck but I see so many "reviewers" and players depend on the state out of the box I can no longer take their opinions seriously. Yes, I understand people who want to make a quick view catcher on YouTube don't bother spending time on the stuff they discuss. They unbox it at length, because some apparently like to watch that nonsense, then make a few random comments on the fret edges or how cheap the hardware looks and play some uninteresting noodling somewhere between crunch and fuzz. Some of them even comment on the guitar coming almost in tune… I was surprised to see that a Mike Bradley, who's been playing for over two decades, had to be shown how to clean the fret buzz off his new expensive Fender. No wonder we get those silly, ecstatic stories about the one guitar that "played like a dream" in the shop and had to be bought on the spot. Sometimes it even plays "like buttah". I don't want to know what else these people do with butter. I never played with it. I know my dirt cheap B-400 FL became a lot easier to play after I shimmed the neck and cut the nut to allow comfortable action. It was certainly not a good guitar out of the box but it took a screwdriver, a pair of scissors, a discarded envelope to make shims out of thick paper, a cheap set of files and some patience for the filing to make it nice. I'm sorry but I cannot not think about 'Last tango in Paris' after that comment!
|
|
|
Post by hallon on Aug 8, 2019 12:31:03 GMT
It's a point worth really taking on board that the tone is in the fingers. The way you personally play will have everything to do with which equipment works best for you and with what setup. I'm still searching for that video showing the finger technique that makes a Les Paul sound like a Strat'. Anyone got a link? I think you know what he means, meanwhile it is also very hard try to make a heavy distorted tone become clean with just your hands, it is equally true that a player will have a huge impact on the tone/sound, and is often forgotten in discussions.
|
|
|
Post by hallon on Aug 8, 2019 12:35:00 GMT
Yes, tone is definitely to a large degree in the fingers, and hands. How hard you hit the strings, what kind of vibrato you play etc. And how you hear and then respond to a certain sound quality and what your fingers then make out of it. Yes this aspect is many times forgotten to take into consideration. All these things are the same when comparing guitars, so they are not relevant here. And no, "tone" is definitely not so much in the fingers, at least not in its meaning related to the frequency picture of sound. This can be said of a violin where fingers and bow have a strong role in shaping the sound but the main reason why a player usually sounds similar with different electric guitars is that the fingers that turn the knobs go for a similar end result. Meanwhile I agree with that a certain player will go for a certain tone and will try to dial in what fits his ideal of a good tone, I think it is just as easy to compare the way a guitar player shape a sound with the right and the left hand, in the same way a violin player does it, even though the effect might be more dramatic with the violin.
|
|
3,457 posts
|
Post by LeoThunder on Aug 8, 2019 12:39:11 GMT
Yes I agree with you DefJef , there has to be a certain amount of desire/motivation as well as natural and for some things physical ability. Physical ability is one thing and I would never trust myself to acquire certain precision skills but turning a screwdriver is not one of those manual gifts people need to have. And when we are talking about musicians doing the most subtle or intricate things on a fingerboard, we can understand it's all about wanting to learn to do it and nothing about being able to. I'm not the DIY guy. I never build anything myself, I won't learn to refinish a guitar or shape a headstock but sometime, the allegedly easy solution turns out more cumbersome than doing it myself. Having someone replace my battery (4 screws, remember) meant asking someone to help me start the bloody car, bring it there then bide my time for a few hours until it got done (because people are already busy working on someone else's job when I get there). The same thing goes for setting up a guitar. Who wants to bring the silly thing to someone and pick it up later? I can do it in less time than it would take me to go to someone who would do it. Same thing for ironing shirts.
|
|
|
Post by blindwilly3fingers on Aug 8, 2019 14:42:06 GMT
Yes I agree with you DefJef , there has to be a certain amount of desire/motivation as well as natural and for some things physical ability. Physical ability is one thing and I would never trust myself to acquire certain precision skills but turning a screwdriver is not one of those manual gifts people need to have. And when we are talking about musicians doing the most subtle or intricate things on a fingerboard, we can understand it's all about wanting to learn to do it and nothing about being able to. I'm not the DIY guy. I never build anything myself, I won't learn to refinish a guitar or shape a headstock but sometime, the allegedly easy solution turns out more cumbersome than doing it myself. Having someone replace my battery (4 screws, remember) meant asking someone to help me start the bloody car, bring it there then bide my time for a few hours until it got done (because people are already busy working on someone else's job when I get there). The same thing goes for setting up a guitar. Who wants to bring the silly thing to someone and pick it up later? I can do it in less time than it would take me to go to someone who would do it. Same thing for ironing shirts. Using a screwdriver or undoing bolts requires little skill. Filing a nut on the overhand requires a skill and feel some people don't have. Setting up a guitar can involve a lot more than changing a car battery. We can argue all day but don't expect everyone to agree with your opinion. While you may be able to set up your guitar to your personal liking. Why should I believe the data you have posted in another thread regarding the action of your guitars? You have stated you use guitar picks as your measure and give precise 1.38 or 1.25 or whatever measurements. You have posted that you don't need feeler gauges, that's fine it's your choice. Myself personally would take your measurements as 'ballpark figures' and be more inclined to believe a feeler gauge is more accurate than plastic/acrylic picks added together. Now yes I'm splitting hairs, because you or I know how to set up a guitar does not mean someone who doesn't should have to learn how to. This may be due to being not very practical/good wth their hands, it could be they are not interested in doing it and would rather pay someone. If people give honest opinions/reasons that's fine I respect that. My wife is fantastic at ironing shirts (she should be she worked in a laundry for years), I can iron a shirt but nowhere near as good as her. It also takes me a lot longer. I'm not going to get on the tone in fingers debate although some people have a better touch/feel. Much like professional sportsmen have superb touch and feel with ball sports. That is an argument for another day! The point is most people come on here to share views and experience with like minded others. Some have better knowledge of some areas than others. Personally I want to learn and gain more knowledge of all things guitar. If I can help someone I will try to but I only offer my opinion/advice it's up to them if they take it. If people disagree with me that's fine its their prerogative. Likewise if I believe I am pretty well on the mark and someone insinuates I'm talking **** I will argue the point. I'm not here to score points or push myself as some kind of guitar guru. I simply would like to join debates, receive and offer ideas that is all.
|
|
DefJef
THBC Moderator
Due to musical differences I've decided I can't work with myself any more.
|
Post by DefJef on Aug 8, 2019 16:09:15 GMT
Yes I agree with you DefJef , there has to be a certain amount of desire/motivation as well as natural and for some things physical ability. Physical ability is one thing and I would never trust myself to acquire certain precision skills but turning a screwdriver is not one of those manual gifts people need to have. And when we are talking about musicians doing the most subtle or intricate things on a fingerboard, we can understand it's all about wanting to learn to do it and nothing about being able to. I'm not the DIY guy. I never build anything myself, I won't learn to refinish a guitar or shape a headstock but sometime, the allegedly easy solution turns out more cumbersome than doing it myself. Having someone replace my battery (4 screws, remember) meant asking someone to help me start the bloody car, bring it there then bide my time for a few hours until it got done (because people are already busy working on someone else's job when I get there). The same thing goes for setting up a guitar. Who wants to bring the silly thing to someone and pick it up later? I can do it in less time than it would take me to go to someone who would do it. Same thing for ironing shirts. There's definitely a lot to be said for trying to get to grips with the basics of setting up a guitar, yet I know plenty of players who seem to simply have no interest in doing so or else seem to have more money than sense. I can't understand that but that's just me. I know others who have no interest in pedals or who seem solely focused on music and not the method by which it is created. I can think of one who has never even tried to work out what his pickup selections do. In the studio I'll have to suggest trying the neck pickup. He seems genuinely delighted when that's the sound he was looking for, as though the scales have fallen from his eyes by the revelation of a great guru. He's a far better player than I am. Perhaps he spent time focusing on the more important things. So much of this learning is to do with preference, I guess. But I'm with you LeoThunder in wanting to learn as much about how my guitars work as possible and to do any tweaks myself too. I start from the assumption that 'it can't be all that hard'. Maybe nine times out of ten it isn't either. I certainly agree that assessing a cheap, or even a less cheap, instrument from how it sounds straight out of the box is a short sighted notion. How we respond to finding that it's not perfect though will, I imagine, hinge on what we feel we can do about it. How awkward or expensive the fixes seem to be. I would encourage anyone who comes to this forum to have a go if they think they're generally competent at most things. There's not much that can't be sorted quite quickly and cheaply with a few household items or things rustled together. I like guitars because of that. Faced with a saxophone or a violin I may initially feel a bit lost but even there stuff can be mastered for little outlay if the owner is able take their time and be steady. If they are self-aware enough to know that they have never been able to put two Lego blocks together successfully or cut their own toe nails without it ending in disaster they may very well be wise in not even removing that truss rod cover or taking up a file.
|
|
|
Post by blindwilly3fingers on Aug 8, 2019 17:13:35 GMT
Physical ability is one thing and I would never trust myself to acquire certain precision skills but turning a screwdriver is not one of those manual gifts people need to have. And when we are talking about musicians doing the most subtle or intricate things on a fingerboard, we can understand it's all about wanting to learn to do it and nothing about being able to. I'm not the DIY guy. I never build anything myself, I won't learn to refinish a guitar or shape a headstock but sometime, the allegedly easy solution turns out more cumbersome than doing it myself. Having someone replace my battery (4 screws, remember) meant asking someone to help me start the bloody car, bring it there then bide my time for a few hours until it got done (because people are already busy working on someone else's job when I get there). The same thing goes for setting up a guitar. Who wants to bring the silly thing to someone and pick it up later? I can do it in less time than it would take me to go to someone who would do it. Same thing for ironing shirts. There's definitely a lot to be said for trying to get to grips with the basics of setting up a guitar, yet I know plenty of players who seem to simply have no interest in doing so or else seem to have more money than sense. I can't understand that but that's just me. I know others who have no interest in pedals or who seem solely focused on music and not the method by which it is created. I can think of one who has never even tried to work out what his pickup selections do. In the studio I'll have to suggest trying the neck pickup. He seems genuinely delighted when that's the sound he was looking for, as though the scales have fallen from his eyes by the revelation of a great guru. He's a far better player than I am. Perhaps he spent time focusing on the more important things. So much of this learning is to do with preference, I guess. But I'm with you LeoThunder in wanting to learn as much about how my guitars work as possible and to do any tweaks myself too. I start from the assumption that 'it can't be all that hard'. Maybe nine times out of ten it isn't either. I certainly agree that assessing a cheap, or even a less cheap, instrument from how it sounds straight out of the box is a short sighted notion. How we respond to finding that it's not perfect though will, I imagine, hinge on what we feel we can do about it. How awkward or expensive the fixes seem to be. I would encourage anyone who comes to this forum to have a go if they think they're generally competent at most things. There's not much that can't be sorted quite quickly and cheaply with a few household items or things rustled together. I like guitars because of that. Faced with a saxophone or a violin I may initially feel a bit lost but even there stuff can be mastered for little outlay if the owner is able take their time and be steady. If they are self-aware enough to know that they have never been able to put two Lego blocks together successfully or cut their own toe nails without it ending in disaster they may very well be wise in not even removing that truss rod cover or taking up a file. I totally agree with people having a go themselves if they are confident. And I know fellow guitar players that only play the instrument, never attempt any maintenence other than wipe it with a cloth. I can not be like this if can do it or learn to do it I will. We all like our guitar set up to our own preference. When I set up someone else's guitar set it up firstly to manufacturers recommendation/specs. Then fine tune it to how they like it, if I know they want a lower action prior to set up I'll try and set it accordingly. I know what your saying about a guitar straight out the box. I have been lucky most of the ones I've purchased have been reasonably good and only needed a few tweaks. If I had a n experience that a few on this forum have, I would seriously consider if the faults were within the 'fit for purpose' remit or not and if not return it. That I think is part and parcel of buying cheaper instruments via mail order. I think people can get carried away watching hyped reviews and think a Harley Benton will pop out the box like a 5 grand PRS or something similar.
|
|