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Post by LeoThunder on Aug 8, 2019 18:26:07 GMT
There's definitely a lot to be said for trying to get to grips with the basics of setting up a guitar, yet I know plenty of players who seem to simply have no interest in doing so or else seem to have more money than sense. My original point is different, though. It's about getting someone to make a guitar better rather than just buying a more expensive one or hunting for the miracle waiting for you in some corner of the world. And most of the time it only requires fine tuning, not even changes. It's about making things work rather than judging them not ideally made by some lesser god.
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Post by LeoThunder on Aug 8, 2019 18:43:51 GMT
I know what your saying about a guitar straight out the box. I have been lucky most of the ones I've purchased have been reasonably good and only needed a few tweaks. If I had a n experience that a few on this forum have, I would seriously consider if the faults were within the 'fit for purpose' remit or not and if not return it. That I think is part and parcel of buying cheaper instruments via mail order. I think people can get carried away watching hyped reviews and think a Harley Benton will pop out the box like a 5 grand PRS or something similar. They would be sorely disappointed but the thing is, even a PRS won't be perfect out of the box because if it's made of wood, the neck will have moved a little and it won't have been set up to their very taste in the first place, unless that is part of the transaction and the dealer has done it before they picked it up. I have come to think that most Harley Benton above the 150€ mark (and some below) can be made to play like a Fender or a Gibson by someone who would charge half that price. Now, some models have been unlucky. Some have design flaws like the SC-7 (which I still like, though), some were dealt funny sounding pick-ups like the cheap Fanfret 7 and 8 string. I probably wouldn't want a PJ-4 because it doesn't sound great and I cannot eat the pickguard but everyone who plays a JB-75 raves about it.
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Post by blindwilly3fingers on Aug 8, 2019 19:09:27 GMT
LeoThunder the least you would expect from a 5 grand PRS is perfect fretwork and impeccable finish. HB's mostly have good finishes but often there can be subtle flaws but it's a cheap guitar. The set up can be a problem with any brand of guitar straight out the box. I can't see the point of these HB 750 vs Gibson 59 etc. At the end of the day the Gibson will have better electrics and hardware. Yes they are both made of wood and yes you can make them both playable. You can probably make them sound very similar with effects, eq and amp etc. But the Gibson will possibly hold its value and in some cases (20-30 years) it may appreciate in value.. That in no way is meant as a slight against HB. I think HB's can be very good value for money. But in reality there is no point me having a 5 grand guitar it will still sound ****. For me personally I'm better off buying 3 or 4 HB's for around a grand in total to play and mess around with.
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Post by LeoThunder on Aug 8, 2019 19:18:35 GMT
But the Gibson will possibly hold its value and in some cases (20-30 years) it may appreciate in value.. This will only work with a Gibson and maybe a few other special brands because they are actively pursuing this. If you had a Firebird X, it just increased in value after the unsold ones were destroyed. This is Gibson's promise to their customers: they sell expensive stuff and won't water it down. But you won't get this from a 2000€ Fender or Ibanez. Guitars are not investments. Buy a chunk of gold if you have money to spare. So in the world of sensible decisions, HB are high on the scale.
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Post by blindwilly3fingers on Aug 8, 2019 19:34:12 GMT
But the Gibson will possibly hold its value and in some cases (20-30 years) it may appreciate in value.. This will only work with a Gibson and maybe a few other special brands because they are actively pursuing this. If you had a Firebird X, it just increased in value after the unsold ones were destroyed. This is Gibson's promise to their customers: they sell expensive stuff and won't water it down. But you won't get this from a 2000€ Fender or Ibanez. Guitars are not investments. Buy a chunk of gold if you have money to spare. So in the world of sensible decisions, HB are high on the scale. There was a 1964 fender strat in the window of one of the shops in Denmark Street a couple of months ago. It was in worse nick than Rory Gallagher's and was going for £19,999 and one I couldn't see the year of that was in better looking condition and that was £14,000. Now I'm not entirely sure what constitutes a vintage guitar but some are serious money. I did see the nonsense with the firebird x, I can't believe they never even salvaged the hardware and pups on those. You say you won't get that with Ibanez, Fender? I think some of the older Ibanez lawsuit era guitar fetch a very good money. Not just Ibanez but a lot of the 70's Japanese brands. Maybe one day old HB's will fetch serious money? Probably I will have expired long before that's the case.
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Post by hallon on Aug 9, 2019 7:00:56 GMT
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Post by hallon on Aug 9, 2019 7:08:37 GMT
There's definitely a lot to be said for trying to get to grips with the basics of setting up a guitar, yet I know plenty of players who seem to simply have no interest in doing so or else seem to have more money than sense. This...
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Post by hallon on Aug 9, 2019 8:16:12 GMT
In the do-it-yourself vs. let-somebody-else-do-it-for-you-for-a-price section we have forgotten to take into account two groups of people. Those whose time is so valuable that there is a cost saving in giving it to somebody else to do; what's a £70 luthier's bill vs the £500 somebody may be able to earn in the same time? And then there's the time poor: those who just do not have enough hours in the day to spend an afternoon crouched over an intensive care guitar patient. I can think of two friends like that. Maybe both would be interested but it might just make no sense. Yes... And also the average joe, who has zero interest in learning to set up a guitar, even the most basic skills. And are willing to pay for it, and will save money from something else, that another person can't live without.
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Post by hallon on Aug 9, 2019 19:16:51 GMT
I can't see the point of these HB 750 vs Gibson 59 etc. At the end of the day the Gibson will have better electrics and hardware. There are many reasons why a Gison vs Harley benton can be valid. One obvious reason is to make people think about value, and what is it that makes one guitar cost ten times more than the other. Most people will assume that they sound so much better, And sure, many times they do, but always? And do they sound ten times better, or even just twice as good? Another valid point is to put pressure on the expensive names in the business, are their instruments automatically so much better than other, lesser well known and often times cheaper brands? And the list goes on...
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Post by blindwilly3fingers on Aug 9, 2019 21:16:15 GMT
I can't see the point of these HB 750 vs Gibson 59 etc. At the end of the day the Gibson will have better electrics and hardware. There are many reasons why a Gison vs Harley benton can be valid. One obvious reason is to make people think about value, and what is it that makes one guitar cost ten times more than the other. Most people will assume that they sound so much better, And sure, many times they do, but always? And do they sound ten times better, or even just twice as good? Another valid point is to put pressure on the expensive names in the business, are their instruments automatically so much better than other, lesser well known and often times cheaper brands? And the list goes on... You may have valid points. As I said in an earlier post they can be made to sound very similar. While the build quality on HB's can be good I would expect the Gibson to be better in both materials and finish. That's not saying Asia built guitars are not built as well as American/European guitars. Even with the quality rep Gibson has had over the past few years. People who want well known established brands will buy those. You quoted my opinion, I can't see the point of this type of review. That's all it is my opinion, if you like this type of review that's fine it's your choice. Personally I think it's like comparing a Ford with a Rolls Royce (OK that may be bit of an exaggeration). I tend to prefer reviews of brands with similar price range. This is probably because I purchase cheaper instruments sub £300. If I were to purchase a guitar for £800-1000 I would look at brands offering the type of guitar I want in that price range. I am in no way being disrespectful to those that make or watch those cheap vs very expensive guitars. If people are interested that's their choice, fair play, crack on.
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3,457 posts
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Post by LeoThunder on Aug 10, 2019 3:29:17 GMT
I can't see the point of these HB 750 vs Gibson 59 etc. At the end of the day the Gibson will have better electrics and hardware. And do they sound ten times better, or even just twice as good? The question doesn't make sense.
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3,457 posts
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Post by LeoThunder on Aug 10, 2019 5:17:20 GMT
There are many reasons why a Gison vs Harley benton can be valid. One obvious reason is to make people think about value, and what is it that makes one guitar cost ten times more than the other. Most people will assume that they sound so much better, And sure, many times they do, but always? And do they sound ten times better, or even just twice as good? Another valid point is to put pressure on the expensive names in the business, are their instruments automatically so much better than other, lesser well known and often times cheaper brands? And the list goes on... You may have valid points. As I said in an earlier post they can be made to sound very similar. While the build quality on HB's can be good I would expect the Gibson to be better in both materials and finish. That's not saying Asia built guitars are not built as well as American/European guitars. Personally I think it's like comparing a Ford with a Rolls Royce (OK that may be bit of an exaggeration). I can compare apples and oranges. I think it makes sense, if only for education value. I have always wanted someone to come up with a serious comparison of a cheap and an expensive guitar, so I could know what I would buy with the price difference. All I usually get is a brain-dead "they don't compare" from fools who want to believe their expense is justified or from brand stooges. The thing is, an American Strat' and a HB ST-62 are closer to each other than an apple to an orange or a Ford to a Roll Royce. Much closer. I never had a Ford or a Rolls Royce but I had a VW Golf and a BMW 735, so I'll just extrapolate from there. Significant differences but both were functioning cars and the VW was not a disgrace. Guitars, as about anything, can be evaluated along multiple dimensions and the ignorant, the newbie, needs to be told what they are, where the differences are found and which of them make the price difference. Sound.Critical in acoustic instruments, much less so in electric ones where the amplifier and whatever is placed around it dramatically change what the instrument itself produces. There are still significant differences at the source, like pick-up type and placement along the scale but people over emphasise the importance of it in fine comparisons. A Harley Benton SC or ST sound an awful lot like the Les Pauls and Strat's they copy. That was really the message of the early videos by HP42 or Cory Mura which made the brand acceptable. Ergonomics and play-ability.Size and shape are the keys of ergonomics. Strat's are good, Les Pauls are crap (they weigh half a ton, dig in your ribs and fall on the side, bashing your face with an angled headstock and breaking your foot with their heavy butt in the process, don't get a Les Paul shaped object). Scale length and neck thickness are further qualities that affect a player's well being. All these things are independent of price with a few possible exceptions like a Parker guitar. The classic shapes are all copied by everyone at every price. Play-ability further results from the instrument's ability to be set-up optimally (whatever that means to the player). Cheapest junk will not guarantee this and while the quality of the fretwork puts a limit on how low the action can go, excellent results can be achieved on most Harley Benton by someone who knows what he's doing. It's an extra cost but not one that would turn a 120€ guitar (ST-62) into a 550€ expense (MIM Fender Strat'). Here again, big money is not a precondition to quality. Functionality.More strings, more pick-ups, more controls, a floating bridge, a double locking one, an integrated synthesizer (hello Vox), a built in coffee machine or robotuners… All this does more and costs extra money. Harley Benton offers an original Floyd Rose (allegedly more durable than copies) in 300€ models, Ibanez starts around 500€. it seems full (normal) functionality does not require a big jump into the higher price segments. Come on guys, you can get your coffee another way. Durability.They say a washing machine for twice the price lasts more than twice longer. Maybe. Cheap stuff breaks sooner but guitars are not exactly made of breaking moving parts that will fail you after a year. The edge of the knife on which a floating bridge balances is said to be such a wear issue. It will lose its ability to return in position with usage if it is of low quality. Pots will get scratchy too but all they need is a cleaning and even replacing them is cheap and fairly easy. I heard about necks breaking at the headstock but it was not related to Harley Benton. Another form of durability is that of the finish. Early Strat's were terrible in this regard, the paint fell off by sweating on it. I'm almost sure my ST-62s will last longer unless I drag them on the floor with my car. Object value.This is where some of the big money goes. This is no longer about making a good music instrument that will sound good, hold tune, play well and resist time, but about producing a flawless, beautiful object with shiny parts. Perfect execution, exotic tops, additional bindings, dinosaur tooth inlays, rolled off fret edges, pots from an American brand (because bigger is better)… Expensive materials and more manufacturing work make the object expensive. Harley Benton do not play in this league. Some of them will even have obvious flaws in the finish or around the bindings, non centred dots and worse. Those I have look fine, though You can have a CNC machine run for a day engraving dragon scales on a Strat' and sell it for $35000. It's still a Strat'. And I f…ing hate dragons anyway. Stupid ugly flying lizards with bad breath Image.That's where it is. Turn up with a Fender and you're a serious musician. Bring a Squier and you're a beginner. Guess who's getting the job. A very valid argument, by the way, that's why people dress up for job interviews. Far beyond objective quality, this is about belonging, getting the "real thing" because the other ignorant think it is.
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Post by LeoThunder on Aug 10, 2019 8:18:37 GMT
More on apples, oranges and lemons. Here's Dave Simpson telling about that authentic, real vintage Gibson ES-335 that was rubbish: I also remember Mike Bradley demonstrating his and making me think it was just muddy junk. Maybe I can find that video again. I don't think it was this one but it should illustrate the point to some extent: I think the video I remember was this one and the model is an ES-345, whatever difference it makes:
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Post by blindwilly3fingers on Aug 10, 2019 10:03:32 GMT
Knock yourself out LeoThunder, I used the cars metaphor in reply to hallon to explain my personal preferences for guitar comparison videos. You obviously spent a considerable amount of time and put a lot of thought into your post. You make some excellent observations, you also express your opinions. I agree with a lot of what you have to say and if you want to compare apples vs oranges as you put it, go for it. I have to say, I personally have not come close to sustaining any of the possible injuries you describe from a Les Paul. I don't find them uncomfortable to play and don't suffer from them digging in my ribs. I did not suggest that big money is a precondition to quality. I did however suggest that I would expect the materials and parts would be of better quality on a big money guitar. I am not suggesting cheaper guitars can not be made equally as playable as expensive guitars. As I have said in previous posts I only offer my opinion, it's up to the individual if they agree or not. If I am asked a question I will answer it if I can? I am not interested in any form of ****ing competition. I do not buy guitars because I want to belong, I would like to play guitar to a higher standard than I currently do, that will only happen with practice. I play guitar for fun and enjoyment.
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