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Post by hallon on Aug 10, 2019 18:39:46 GMT
I wonder if that snobbery about brands still exists amongst people who matter in the industry? I'll bet it does in the studio where equipment that captures sound cleanly and faultlessly with or without ease is at a premium. Certain names like Shure or Neumann get a reputation for reliability and serviceability, others for the opposite. In fact it must be incredibly daunting for a new kid on the block to convince a studio engineer to try their new mic/compressor or whatever. They have a century of reputations to compete with. But, in my experience, a producer doesn't seem to mind what guitar you bring along as long as you've changed the strings recently (if you haven't he may well suggest you do). He's generally interested in whether you are wasting his and your time. There seems to be an almost anti-snobbery about brands in my experience. The more obscure a guitar is the better. And live, folks seem to be really impressed if you can play an Encore starter pack strat and knock them over. Even more delighted if you can perform a solo on a knackered Stylophone or Christmas stocking Melodica. I think people just love a gimmick. And why not? Anything to jazz up their life? There's something rather charming about a cheap instrument getting its moment in the spotlight. Personally I don't particularly like getting into conversations with guitar obsessives after a gig. It can get in the way of grabbing your first beer and food of the night. If playing a visibly derisory instrument achieves that aim then I'm happy. Trouble is even an unbranded partscaster can sometimes generate more interest from the most boring member of the audience than you may want. Builders beware! Yes, I agree with this
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Post by LeoThunder on Aug 10, 2019 18:44:59 GMT
The question doesn't make sense. Of course it does, if an instrument cost ten times as much, it is well worth thinking about how much better that guitar is subjectively perceived in (non monetary) value for oneself. Not as an exact objective truth. But as an overall impression of the guitar in question. No it doesn't. Something that cannot be quantified cannot be twice anything.
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Post by hallon on Aug 10, 2019 18:59:58 GMT
Of course it does, if an instrument cost ten times as much, it is well worth thinking about how much better that guitar is subjectively perceived in (non monetary) value for oneself. Not as an exact objective truth. But as an overall impression of the guitar in question. No it doesn't. Something that cannot be quantified cannot be twice anything. As I said, I am not talking about an objective quantifiable truth, I am talking about something subjective, arbitrary, a perceived value. We are not rational human beings acting upon pure logical rational axioms, therefore subjective/emotional states/parameters are indeed valid.
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Post by LeoThunder on Aug 10, 2019 19:10:49 GMT
No it doesn't. Something that cannot be quantified cannot be twice anything. As I said, I am not talking about an objective quantifiable truth, I am talking about something subjective, arbitrary, a perceived value. We are not rational human beings acting upon pure logical rational axioms, therefore subjective/emotional states/parameters are indeed valid. Speak for your own deficiencies. I am rational enough to understand the basis of speech and mathematics. The term "sound x times better" makes no semantic sense. This is neither subjective nor an opinion. As to "emotional states" this is not something that has a validity. I won't be reading any more of your nonsense.
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Post by hallon on Aug 10, 2019 19:18:31 GMT
As I said, I am not talking about an objective quantifiable truth, I am talking about something subjective, arbitrary, a perceived value. We are not rational human beings acting upon pure logical rational axioms, therefore subjective/emotional states/parameters are indeed valid. Speak for your own deficiencies. I am rational enough to understand the basis of speech and mathematics. The term "sound x times better" makes no semantic sense. This is neither subjective nor an opinion. As to "emotional states" this is not something that has a validity. I won't be reading any more of your nonsense. Now it IS a FACT, that humans act upon emotions, and are, in certain situations, non-rational. Some of us more than others though. I am not specifically referring to something sounding x times better either, it can be for whatever reasons why a person might perceive one guitar has certain amount of non monetary value such as looks, feel, playability, sound etc
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DefJef
THBC Moderator
Due to musical differences I've decided I can't work with myself any more.
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Post by DefJef on Aug 10, 2019 19:46:13 GMT
I think the phrase, "does it sound ten times better" carries a certain illustrative poetry with it and is probably understandable to the vast majority of people. I wouldn't like to quantify them but I'm sure that a quick vox pop would identify those that did and those that didn't comprehend its meaning. There may be a few that suspected you were trying to catch them out in some way or other but they may be the same people who would discuss whether it really was a good evening after a quick salutation in a pub doorway, "That depends on relative to what. And the definition of 'evening'. And whether that is a question, or an answer or a statement. And from who's point of view." I've spent enough time in the company of such philosophers to know that a very dry and humourless time can be had.
Poor old poetry though. So damned subjective.
Regarding comparing a few guitars, I wouldn't like to try to quantify how one sounds against another. I guess I could, at a push try to give ratings to some of the sounds I was hearing in order to eliminate a few, but in the end I reckon I would probably only respond with some subjective noises and maybe a few facial expressions, like some chimp, and then choose the one I liked the sound of... until I saw that it was a pointy, hair metal superstrat and begin to doubt my own ears. Especially if it was covered with Game of Thrones graphics. I absolutely wouldn't run them all through some measuring devices to line them up in order of best sound though. 'Best' would be unquantifiable.
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Post by blindwilly3fingers on Aug 10, 2019 20:02:56 GMT
It's all gone Pete tong!!!!
After discussing all manner of subjects especially terminology. I feel a bit like Griff on this video.
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DefJef
THBC Moderator
Due to musical differences I've decided I can't work with myself any more.
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Post by DefJef on Aug 10, 2019 20:28:49 GMT
Quite so blindwilly3fingers. The terms 'better' or 'worse' when it comes to our senses can only be very personal. I was listening to a crime writer this morning discussing being a judge for the Booker Prize. He actually found it rather absurd. As he said, at least one of the other judges on the panel will represent a major book retailer. He has had endless disagreements with them when he gets told that a book he loves is 'unsaleable'. "But you're crazy", he'll tell them. "It's the best book in the room". "That's not what our customers will think." One judge is not trying to quantify potential sales. The other believes they can. But only based on past experience. Both are reacting to the same book with their own personal tastes intact and then one of them is trying to translate that into sales figures. I actually wonder how much of that retail judge's personal taste is being coloured or even subjugated by their job in retail? The whole 'prize for your creative output', even in the least tainted competitions, can only ever be subjective and probably even then modified by peer pressure or the desire to appear edgy. Ego can be such an undesirable master.
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Post by blindwilly3fingers on Aug 10, 2019 21:20:37 GMT
I too have an aversion for pointy hair metal superstrats! They may well sound very good DefJef. I just don't like the look of them, I find it a little strange that I have no desire to even try one in a shop just in case I may even like how it feels, plays or sounds. Strange how I won't even give them the time of day let alone consider the merits of one? We all have our quirks I suppose? I can't help it I love Les Paul type guitars. Whether it's an ingrained flaw from my youth, I don't know? Red is my favourite colour I also like green a lot but don't have a guitar in either colour?
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Post by LeoThunder on Aug 11, 2019 5:43:02 GMT
I think the phrase, "does it sound ten times better" carries a certain illustrative poetry with it and is probably understandable to the vast majority of people. I wouldn't like to quantify them but I'm sure that a quick vox pop would identify those that did and those that didn't comprehend its meaning. There may be a few that suspected you were trying to catch them out in some way or other but they may be the same people who would discuss whether it really was a good evening after a quick salutation in a pub doorway, "That depends on relative to what. And the definition of 'evening'. And whether that is a question, or an answer or a statement. And from who's point of view." I've spent enough time in the company of such philosophers to know that a very dry and humourless time can be had. The phrase "does it sound ten times better" is understood by a vast majority of idiots to mean that there is an objective evaluation of sound quality across one dimension (not possible). The number of fools who understand things wrong or jump to conclusions based on implications never made anything true. When I speak of a good evening, I am merely expressing my pleasure at it and it is a way of expressing thanks to those who hear it. It basically means "I enjoyed myself tonight, thank you guys, I like you". It is not an evaluation of the evening and certainly not a purchasing advice given to others. The next point is the "worth it" part. Is this worth the money? This can almost never be answered for anyone else as it depends on their relation to money which is unknown and varied. I can answer the question for myself: is this thing worth paying 10 times more than that other to me? Assuming my answer if of any interest to others is utter presumption or more likely stupidity. What can be of interest to others is a clear description of the differences. They can then make their own assessment.
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Post by LeoThunder on Aug 11, 2019 5:47:20 GMT
I was listening to a crime writer this morning discussing being a judge for the Booker Prize. He actually found it rather absurd. As he said, at least one of the other judges on the panel will represent a major book retailer. He has had endless disagreements with them when he gets told that a book he loves is 'unsaleable'. "But you're crazy", he'll tell them. "It's the best book in the room". "That's not what our customers will think." How typical. Awards of all sorts are a publicity tool but the naive still want to believe they somehow represent some artistic quality.
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Post by LeoThunder on Aug 11, 2019 5:50:49 GMT
I too have an aversion for pointy hair metal superstrats! They may well sound very good DefJef . I just don't like the look of them, I find it a little strange that I have no desire to even try one in a shop just in case I may even like how it feels, plays or sounds. Strange how I won't even give them the time of day let alone consider the merits of one? I don't even want to think of dropping one of these on my foot. I think Lully was killed by one of them… or was it a Les Paul? I need to look this up. I'll tell you a secret, though. No guitar you pick up anywhere will ever be so good that you can't find its equivalent in a shape or colour you like. There are no unicorns. Well, maybe not anymore…
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Post by LeoThunder on Aug 11, 2019 8:16:11 GMT
Yep there's no way to avoid it. We know what we like. I just took a little shuftie through the entire PRS range and not one stopped me in my tracks to find out more. That's clearly not Paul's intention but, there we have it. You don't like the flamy tops, do you? Or is there something else? I just went there too and found myself equally uninterested. A lot of this is due to the shapes, though. I never liked the CSTs either with the strange exception of the hollow body models. I have had the Tobacco or the Tortoise on my wish list ever since I started looking at Harley Benton two years ago. There is something about the pick-up covers fitting the bridge and knobs, the black pick-up frames fitting the large, dark f-holes that makes a harmonious picture and suddenly the shape is fine.
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DefJef
THBC Moderator
Due to musical differences I've decided I can't work with myself any more.
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Post by DefJef on Aug 11, 2019 9:09:57 GMT
Yep there's no way to avoid it. We know what we like. I just took a little shuftie through the entire PRS range and not one stopped me in my tracks to find out more. That's clearly not Paul's intention but, there we have it. You don't like the flamy tops, do you? Or is there something else? I just went there too and found myself equally uninterested. A lot of this is due to the shapes, though. I never liked the CSTs either with the strange exception of the hollow body models. I have had the Tobacco or the Tortoise on my wish list ever since I started looking at Harley Benton two years ago. There is something about the pick-up covers fitting the bridge and knobs, the black pick-up frames fitting the large, dark f-holes that makes a harmonious picture and suddenly the shape is fine. I think it is the flamy tops that don't inspire me although there was a Trampas Green with a bit of maple showing in the cutout that I can remember enough to describe, and a sort of rustburst grey. I don't think it's the shape that I don't like but rather, as you suggest, how it all hangs together. The f-hole always seems to look a bit small and misplaced on the semi hollows, so better to my eyes if it blends in a bit with a darker colour. Anyway that's just me and there are plenty who wouldn't be able to even understand what I can be talking about and love it all. Pictures can be a bit misleading anyway and even the orientation of a guitar can suddenly make it appear far more balanced. If I was to wake up with one of them in my room I'd definitely be less disappointed than if it was a hair metal superstrat with GoT decals on it.
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