3,457 posts
|
Post by LeoThunder on Apr 9, 2019 7:36:54 GMT
Let me guess. Thomann wants cheap products. Manufacturer decides to build in the crappy material they got to avoid a loss or increase profit. Based on previously positive results, Thomann has reduced the effort spent on checking that model to save on controlling cost and keep the product cheap. Bad batch with crappy material comes through unchecked to customer, who then uses the return policy. That's how Thomann becomes aware of the bad batch. Cheaper is risky. If you want the cheapest stuff, be prepared to face the realities of cost reduction. If you want quality stuff, be prepared to pay for it. Cheapskates who want everything for nothing are not customers worth having anyway. When there is a Quality Control Inspection Card supplied with the product this indicates that it was actually checked. It means the price we pay, as low as it may be, covers the cost of a real hands-on inspection. And the customer has every right to expect this has been done. It is not a case of wanting everything for nothing at all. And I genuinely do not believe Thomann would ever think of their customers as being cheapkates and not worth having. I guess it was checked and found ok. I suppose such faults, which are a matter of personal judgement, as opposed to functions not functioning, are not the object of that final quality control and there is a conscious decision to let the return policy take care of that. Check that the thing makes noise, that the knobs work and a basic set-up is possible, then let the customer decide how much blemish he'll tolerate. We can then decide for ourselves if we want to play along and return things until we're happy. I'll admit I'm not keen on buying new from Thomann for that very reason, so I got my HB's used. At least they passed the customer quality check once and they are even cheaper. Returning stuff is no big deal, though, I shouldn't be that lazy. Any business would be foolish to think there is no such thing as a customer not worth having. I'm probably one as I'll never buy high margin stuff ;-) At least I'm not ordering stuff just to try it out as some are probably doing. Henning keeps telling people to do it and Thomann seem to be fine with that.
|
|
|
|
Post by Vincent on Apr 9, 2019 8:07:19 GMT
When there is a Quality Control Inspection Card supplied with the product this indicates that it was actually checked. It means the price we pay, as low as it may be, covers the cost of a real hands-on inspection. And the customer has every right to expect this has been done. It is not a case of wanting everything for nothing at all. And I genuinely do not believe Thomann would ever think of their customers as being cheapkates and not worth having. I guess it was checked and found ok. I suppose such faults, which are a matter of personal judgement, as opposed to functions not functioning, are not the object of that final quality control and there is a conscious decision to let the return policy take care of that. Check that the thing makes noise, that the knobs work and a basic set-up is possible, then let the customer decide how much blemish he'll tolerate. We can then decide for ourselves if we want to play along and return things until we're happy. I'll admit I'm not keen on buying new from Thomann for that very reason, so I got my HB's used. At least they passed the customer quality check once and they are even cheaper. Returning stuff is no big deal, though, I shouldn't be that lazy. Any business would be foolish to think there is no such thing as a customer not worth having. I'm probably one as I'll never buy high margin stuff ;-) At least I'm not ordering stuff just to try it out as some are probably doing. Henning keeps telling people to do it and Thomann seem to be fine with that. I accept that within any Quality Control process personal judgement is a factor to consider but surely there must be some guidance as to what is acceptable and what is not. So the question can be how bad does a guitar have to be before it is rejected by Thomann? Returning stuff might be quite a big deal for some people actually. Arranging the time for collection or taking it to the post office/courier and missing time from work to do it, maybe at the cost of a day's pay or holiday. I have never ordered anything online just to try. I either really want it (or think I really want it) or I don't. But when I do order something online I want to feel reasonably confident that when it arrives it will function as it should do with no nasty aesthetic surprises.
|
|
|
Post by Vincent on Apr 9, 2019 8:14:20 GMT
I believe that by now Thomann has grown too much and therefore shows its limits. Perhaps his staff is too small compared to orders and therefore already under stress. Just see how they responded without a hint "sorry etc." For my part, I'm sick of wasting time and money. Lately his prices have increased then add the high and fixed shipping cost regardless of what you buy for me the result is simple: no Thomann and no Harley benton in the future amen. Near my home ibanez grx70qa 161 euro Thomann 166+20. Online prs se std 509 Thomann 577... Thomann goodbye, i hope that also others Wake up and change the beach. I don't believe to be the only one after all 12 guitars 10 problems 2 rendered 2 replacements frankly not worth it for me. 10 from 12 is not good. I would have abandoned ship long ago. But this is the generally the problem with budget guitars, or budget anything. It is such a risk.
|
|
3,457 posts
|
Post by LeoThunder on Apr 9, 2019 8:29:53 GMT
I believe that by now Thomann has grown too much and therefore shows its limits. Perhaps his staff is too small compared to orders and therefore already under stress. Just see how they responded without a hint "sorry etc." For my part, I'm sick of wasting time and money. Lately his prices have increased then add the high and fixed shipping cost regardless of what you buy for me the result is simple: no Thomann and no Harley benton in the future amen. Near my home ibanez grx70qa 161 euro Thomann 166+20. Online prs se std 509 Thomann 577... Thomann goodbye, i hope that also others Wake up and change the beach. I don't believe to be the only one after all 12 guitars 10 problems 2 rendered 2 replacements frankly not worth it for me. 10 from 12 is not good. I would have abandoned ship long ago. But this is the generally the problem with budget guitars, or budget anything. It is such a risk. That's the point. Prices can only go down by leaving out work or material cost. The low end of any price range is always at least a risk. That's why I'd buy used Ibanez from the 350-500€ price range (not GIO) rather than HBs. Well, I much prefer Ibanez too… I also suspect the Thomann team is running at capacity limit. The Harley Benton success was not expected and is probably not sure enough to warrant hiring people who will be redundant if it wanes. Thomann is a shop, not a guitar maker.
|
|
3,457 posts
|
Post by LeoThunder on Apr 9, 2019 8:33:39 GMT
Returning stuff might be quite a big deal for some people actually. Arranging the time for collection or taking it to the post office/courier and missing time from work to do it, maybe at the cost of a day's pay or holiday. I have never ordered anything online just to try. I either really want it (or think I really want it) or I don't. But when I do order something online I want to feel reasonably confident that when it arrives it will function as it should do with no nasty aesthetic surprises. I do not disagree. That's why I am reluctant to play the new HB game.
|
|
|
Post by blindwilly3fingers on Apr 9, 2019 8:57:12 GMT
It does seem certain batches are less than good quality, I'm not sure but I read Thomann use up to 20 different factories. This could be BS? It does make me wonder how many far east guitar factories there are? In the perfect world Thomann would have a factory that was reliable in both quality and price but this appears difficult to deliver. Perfection doesn't come cheap. Get real. I am real I don't mind paying more, I will probably buy a Dean or Tokai next. I was talking about Thomann 's problems of QC at the factory end. Most of the HB lines are good quality but there is for all to see QC problems that is REAL!
|
|
|
Post by Vincent on Apr 9, 2019 9:19:24 GMT
Returning stuff might be quite a big deal for some people actually. Arranging the time for collection or taking it to the post office/courier and missing time from work to do it, maybe at the cost of a day's pay or holiday. I have never ordered anything online just to try. I either really want it (or think I really want it) or I don't. But when I do order something online I want to feel reasonably confident that when it arrives it will function as it should do with no nasty aesthetic surprises. I do not disagree. That's why I am reluctant to play the new HB game. I feel reluctant to play the new HB game too. I know the best approach is to be pragmatic, knowing that should there be any problem whatsoever it can be returned for a refund but I prefer not to take the risk. And if for example I bought a new HB singlecut model guitar and it was not better than a Gibson Custom Shop Les Paul like some people claim they are I might feel a little disappointed I did order a new HB for another person one time and it was okay. They are not all bad.
|
|
|
Post by blindwilly3fingers on Apr 9, 2019 9:20:14 GMT
If you buy a HB most people know the may have to do a set up or minor remedial work. That for a new guitar probably should not be the norm but unfortunately is with HB. HB's come with cheaper mini pots/switches etc again we know this and are prepared to upgrade if needs be. Other parts for example tuners sometimes need replacing. What most people want it a good guitar they can mod or play as is, with a litlle work. I don't know why you keep talking cheapskate people LeoThunder because most people on here have other higher brands as well. LeoThunder you champion Ibanez but pillor Squier (which come with decent full size pots and switches etc). That is personal choice as is buying a HB you say you only buy used which is fine. But dont castigate a person for expecting a new guitar to be fit for purpose and free from major defects such as a completely ****ed fretboard. No one is having a pop at Thomann, the logistics of QC must be a nightmare. Personally I've been lucky 3 out of 4 good 1 not so good, you pay your money, you make your choice!
|
|
3,457 posts
|
Post by LeoThunder on Apr 9, 2019 9:28:11 GMT
I do not disagree. That's why I am reluctant to play the new HB game. I feel reluctant to play the new HB game too. I know the best approach is to be pragmatic, knowing that should there be any problem whatsoever it can be returned for a refund but I prefer not to take the risk. And if for example I bought a new HB singlecut model guitar and it was not better than a Gibson Custom Shop Les Paul like some people claim they are I might feel a little disappointed I did order a new HB for another person one time and it was okay. They are not all bad. My ST-62 was perfectly fine. I should have kept it. I returned it because it felt redundant with the Ibanez SA I had just found. I was trying to be reasonable then. My SC-450 Plus is a funny B-stock, sold for 100€ by some ebay guy, no idea how he got them, he sold plenty of all possible models. Apart from the wrongly typed tone pot and a few uneven frets I could file down, it is just fine. But it's orange. I think that's what discarded it. I was shocked for a minute then decided it was unique and I like orange anyway. Thinking about it, it is probably one of those that failed quality control.
|
|
3,457 posts
|
Post by LeoThunder on Apr 9, 2019 9:38:29 GMT
What most people want it a good guitar they can mod or play as is, with a litlle work. I don't know why you keep talking cheapskate people LeoThunder because most people on here have other higher brands as well. LeoThunder you champion Ibanez but pillor Squier (which come with decent full size pots and switches etc). That is personal choice as is buying a HB you say you only buy used which is fine. But dont castigate a person for expecting a new guitar to be fit for purpose and free from major defects such as a completely ****ed fretboard. I am criticising cheapskates who expect top quality. I am a cheapskate who is consciously taking risks (or deciding not to) and accepting the consequences. I say "for this price, you get that", not "how dare they do this to me?" As to Squier, my problem with them is of a fully different nature. I dislike their constant harking back to flawed but traditional concepts like the square neck heels or their conscious limiting of the offering by leaving out cheap functions like a coil split or roller string trees. I object to the Squier product, not its quality. My Squier Jazz Bass is just fine but it has a ridiculous headstock for the sake of looking like these old vintage things.
|
|
|
Post by blindwilly3fingers on Apr 9, 2019 9:53:32 GMT
What most people want it a good guitar they can mod or play as is, with a litlle work. I don't know why you keep talking cheapskate people LeoThunder because most people on here have other higher brands as well. LeoThunder you champion Ibanez but pillor Squier (which come with decent full size pots and switches etc). That is personal choice as is buying a HB you say you only buy used which is fine. But dont castigate a person for expecting a new guitar to be fit for purpose and free from major defects such as a completely ****ed fretboard. I am criticising cheapskates who expect top quality. I am a cheapskate who is consciously taking risks (or deciding not to) and accepting the consequences. I say "for this price, you get that", not "how dare they do this to me?" As to Squier, my problem with them is of a fully different nature. I dislike their constant harking back to flawed but traditional concepts like the square neck heels or their conscious limiting of the offering by leaving out cheap functions like a coil split or roller string trees. I object to the Squier product, not its quality. My Squier Jazz Bass is just fine but it has a ridiculous headstock for the sake of looking like these old vintage things. The headstock and vintage old things may be the holy grail for other (personal choice). But the case in point was the ****ed fretboard, which however you wish to paint it should never have been sent to a customer cheapskate or not. A complete novice could look at that fretboard and deduce it should not be like that. Ibanez use jatoba fretboards on some models but I bet they don't get to a customer in the state of the HB ones in this thread. We are are not talking €79 HB's (although these seem not to have QC Problems too often). It's a €200+ HB so it's not exactly bottom or the budegt range.
|
|
3,457 posts
|
Post by LeoThunder on Apr 9, 2019 10:09:14 GMT
But the case in point was the ****ed fretboard, which however you wish to paint it should never have been sent to a customer cheapskate or not. A complete novice could look at that fretboard and deduce it should not be like that. Ibanez use jatoba fretboards on some models but I bet they don't get to a customer in the state of the HB ones in this thread. I would agree and the funny traces on the side of the headstock should not have passed either. It implies there was no check or it was strictly limited to function. Or that box was put on the wrong pile.
|
|
|
3,457 posts
|
Post by LeoThunder on Apr 9, 2019 10:30:54 GMT
I've never had anything that looked as bad as that Jatoba monstrosity. I suppose someone felt it was not acceptable as a deko item and sent it back right at the beginning of the checking loop, the one that starts with the customer
|
|