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Post by salteedog on Feb 13, 2018 1:28:22 GMT
Oh and the nut and saddle aren't the points exerting the tension on the string. Their purpose to stop vibration at those points. Assuming string clearance, you could play an e note on an e string if you removed the nut and saddle and replaced them with your finger-tips - same principle as pinch harmonics.
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Post by Banana on Feb 13, 2018 9:29:31 GMT
The "feeling" tension (not the tension that determines the pitch!) is determined by the total length of the string from bridge to tuners. The longer the string, the stiffer it feels, hence the reverse headstocks.
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Post by salteedog on Feb 13, 2018 10:36:46 GMT
I do end up very confused as I try to get my head around this. I realise that we are talking about ultimate string length to their anchor point. I'm trying to imagine two guitars, one with an ordinary headstock and one with a headstock a metre long and the tuners at the end of that (I know, it sounds horrible but I expect Mosrite have done it ). With all other things being equal; scale length, string thickness etc, then surely the tension of both guitars' E strings can't be the same can it? Or must it be because of the relative distances each guitar's nut needs to be placed from the the tuner/anchor point in order to achieve an E note? The tension is the same. Vibration frequency is a function of String Mass, Tension and String Length(vibration length). hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/Waves/string.htmlAs Banana states above though - tension<>'feel'. When you are bending a string you are applying a lateral force in order to increase the internal tension by x%. With longer strings (tuner to anchor) then you need to stretch it more in order to get the same increase in tension than you would with a shorter string. Because you stretch it more you are actually applying more lateral force (because of greater string angle). Hence difference in feel. Think about hanging a weight off an elastic band and how much extra it stretches when you increase the weight. Start with a longer elastic band and you will have a greater increase in length for the same increase in weight.
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DefJef
THBC Moderator
Due to musical differences I've decided I can't work with myself any more.
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Post by DefJef on Feb 13, 2018 11:00:04 GMT
We still seem to be talking about two different things. That link seems to be referring to nodes; the nut and the saddle. But our question regards the total string length and its tension not any nodes along it. I need to be clearer in what I am trying to ascertain so I'll try to do it as bullet points...but probably get lost somewhere. . ermmmNo, that didn't work. I'll have to sort of repeat myself and maybe someone can point out where my logic is breaking down ( I think I know but no body seems to have pointed it out yet). Say I have two identical stratocasters ( I do actually but that's my problem) but one of them has a metre long headstock so the tuners are a metre away from the nut. Both Es are tuned to E. Then I remove the nut. Both strings would now have a different note with the longer string being much deeper. Do they have the same tension? I guess they do. But the longer string would 'feel' more slack as the anchor points are further apart? And the longer string would take more lateral bending to raise it a semi tone. Because of this greater bend distance it would be easier to find a quarter tone bend because there is more variation to play with. So a longer string should feel easier to bend but need to be bent further to raise it a semitone. Which is what I sense when I play a guitar with longer strings. The opposite of Banana's description. Am I wrong again somewhere?
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Post by Banana on Feb 13, 2018 11:15:54 GMT
If you remove the nut, wouldn't scale length change? Since scale length is the length from nut to 12th fret multiplied by 2...Just an question... To sum it up, yes, the tension you feel when fretting the string will be different. I think you can just relate the string distance after nut to tuner to string distance from bridge to nut - longer string will be harder to bend... But these things can be confusing and lead to headache, hence why I don't want to think about them Mmmmm... CSTs.....
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Post by salteedog on Feb 13, 2018 11:33:50 GMT
Yes the link isn't specifically talking about a guitar (or any other) string...hence why I put vibration length in brackets. Point is vibration frequency is a function of vibration length, string mass and tension only. Anyway - you are right in your statements. But I can see where you and Banana have a misunderstanding.. It's about the word 'feel'. I agree that a longer string would 'feel' looser and hence 'easier' to bend. However at the end of the bend you would have a greater force against your fingers than you would with a shorter string. It's marginal though and you may not even notice it. So that force in itself is not enough to make it feel 'stiffer'. In any case the word 'feel' pertains to something subjective.
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DefJef
THBC Moderator
Due to musical differences I've decided I can't work with myself any more.
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Post by DefJef on Feb 13, 2018 11:34:05 GMT
I don't know Banana . Anything you read about scale length will always only mention the nut and saddle because the maths is done from there when calculating the fret positions, 12th fret being half way there. But I'm guessing the maths could be continued from the nut to the tuner with ever widening fret spaces because the nut always has to go in the same place on our two example guitars in order for it to sound an E on an E string. So to my mind the scale length has not changed simply by removing the nut. The nut is simply another fret on the way from the tuner to the saddle. But that also sounds wrong because the half way distance from tuner to saddle (the 12th fret if you will) would certainly move! If the tension is the same, as we say that it is, then you could (theoretically though probably not practically) still play the two guitars in tune at any fretted position all the way up the neck. So does that mean the 'scale length' is the same? Or is that called something else?
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Post by salteedog on Feb 13, 2018 11:42:43 GMT
Hmmm.... Longer strings are easier to bend - if 'easier' means 'feels looser/less pitch change for same lateral string movement/ need to bend the string more to get pitch change'
but
Shorter strings are easier to bend if 'easier' means 'feels stiffer/more pitch change for same lateral string movement/ need to bend the string less to get pitch change'
Trem bars are an interesting case - use of trem on chords mean that some string change pitch more than others for the same trem deflection (certainly on a 6 in line headstock)...reverse headstocks change the relationship there.
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Post by salteedog on Feb 13, 2018 11:44:29 GMT
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Post by Banana on Feb 13, 2018 11:53:28 GMT
Can we call it quits on this subject and just have a cup of fine tea?
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DefJef
THBC Moderator
Due to musical differences I've decided I can't work with myself any more.
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Post by DefJef on Feb 13, 2018 12:20:18 GMT
Trem bars are an interesting case - use of trem on chords mean that some string change pitch more than others for the same trem deflection (certainly on a 6 in line headstock)...reverse headstocks change the relationship there. It is said that Bigsby's don't do that. I have no idea why. Perhaps we'd better not ask in case Banana gets tea poisoning.
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