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Post by Vincent on Feb 13, 2018 19:08:29 GMT
I think it's hilarious, Banana , that such a seemingly simple topic ends up being equal to landing a rocket on Mars . As usual it's very important to define what is meant by all the terms before looking for solutions. It's the same with philosophy. You spend 90% of the time getting everyone to agree on what all the terms mean before you can get even begin to debate a question. The answer is easy. The question's a right conundrum. I think I'm happy that the tension of a long or short string is the same because that helps to answer @chedapapa 's question...whatever that was... ... something to do with string throughs and toploaders, wasn't it? Or did I make that up? Sue explains this very well.
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Post by salteedog on Feb 13, 2018 22:21:23 GMT
She took her time with the explanation but well done to her all the same. Anyway DefJef whats the difficulty with scale length? Isn't it just the maximum vibrating length of the string? As to why we use the word 'scale'?; I assume it means 'scale' in the same way as 'map' scale and not 'major' (or minor) scale. Or maybe not.....you have me thinking now...
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DefJef
THBC Moderator
Due to musical differences I've decided I can't work with myself any more.
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Post by DefJef on Feb 13, 2018 22:33:35 GMT
She took her time with the explanation but well done to her all the same. Anyway DefJef whats the difficulty with scale length? Isn't it just the maximum vibrating length of the string? As to why we use the word 'scale'?; I assume it means 'scale' in the same way as 'map' scale and not 'major' (or minor) scale. Or maybe not.....you have me thinking now... Not so much a 'difficulty', saltee, more a question over semantics. It does seem to be the maximum vibrating length of a string. I presume she could have just as easily placed a Les Paul or a Mustang face to face with a strat and found a point at which the frets all matched up. If so then yep, scale length must just mean maximum vibrating length...but if they don't, then what? Then it must mean something else. I'm off to find my other scale length guitars to see what the deal is there. I'm just keen to get to the root of all this stuff we unquestioningly take for granted. Glad you set me off down the right path with tension. 'Feel' was the next lesson. What next?
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DefJef
THBC Moderator
Due to musical differences I've decided I can't work with myself any more.
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Post by DefJef on Feb 13, 2018 22:51:39 GMT
Now I've got lost again. Here is a paragraph from GuitarNoise.com, "So, then, why aren’t all guitars built with a shorter scale? Obviously we’d all benefit from that slinky feel, right? Well, guitars with greater tension benefit from a “tighter” sound due to better clarity in their higher overtones. This is often referred to as “twang.” Shorter scale guitars also have trouble accepting heavier gauged strings because the slackened tension causes wider vibration and fret buzz."This is must be garbage, mustn't it? Heavier gauge needs higher tension surely? This kind of stuff is all over the internet. And published in Guitarist magazine too if Sue's video is anything to go by. Is it any wonder we're all confused out of our wits? I had the same trouble trying to understand blablas on this shorty bass string tension thread. Then again he is talking about 'feel' rather than tension but it all sounds wrong to me.
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Post by salteedog on Feb 13, 2018 23:03:17 GMT
I reckon a les paul or Mustang will never line up with a strat. The Brian May does because presumably May and his Dad decided to set the scale length accordingly.
Now ..regarding Guitarnoise.com. Its a strange quote alright considering shorter scale guitars usually carry heavier guage strings to compensate for the reduced tension.
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Post by salteedog on Feb 14, 2018 11:09:35 GMT
Nope - you have it wrong. The BM has a scale length of 24" compared to the Fender standard scale of 25.5". What the lady showed in the video is that the Fender fret 2 to fret 1 distance is very close to the BM Fret 1 to nut distance. BUT she is wrong in stating they are identical. Use this to do the calculations www.stewmac.com/FretCalculator.html24.000" fret scale fret from nut fret to fret 1 1.347" 1.347" (nut-1) 2 2.618" 1.271" (1-2) 3 3.818" 1.200" (2-3) 4 4.951" 1.133" (3-4) Distance between nut and fret 1 = 1.347"25.500" fret scale fret from nut fret to fret 1 1.431" 1.431" (nut-1) 2 2.782" 1.351" (1-2) 3 4.057" 1.275" (2-3) 4 5.261" 1.203" (3-4) Distance between fret 1 and fret 2 = 1.351"So no cigar there Anyway..the point any scale length can be used for your home-made guitar. You are limited only by string materials, ergonomics and your taste as to how floppy is too floppy.
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DefJef
THBC Moderator
Due to musical differences I've decided I can't work with myself any more.
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Post by DefJef on Feb 14, 2018 11:32:24 GMT
Yeah, I thought it was odd. To be fair she did say "give or take a millimetre" which, to some extent, negated her whole illustration! Although maybe she was sort of rounding up and Brian did indeed place the nut on his guitar at exactly the same point as a strat's 1st fret.
So placing a capo at the first fret does not give you a Brian May scale guitar? Or does it? Leaving out the practicalities of doing so why couldn't you take a 25.5" strat, cut off the headstock and reattach it at the first fret? Would all the frets be in the wrong places now? Surely not, although the twelfth fret would now be the thirteenth. When I place a capo at the 5th or even 7th fret I don't lose intonation.
So what I am trying to get at is whether a '25.5inch scale length' applies to the string length and fret spacing, i.e the use of the word 'scale' in a cartographical sense or only to the string length (in which case what the word 'scale' means is anybody's guess!). It seems to me that, if a capo basically does the same job as moving the nut, then you could play a guitar with a strat 'scale length', i.e. fret spacing, but have a string length of say 12.75". I wonder what that relationship is called? It's using the same 'scale'.
Certainly I couldn't get anything to line up when I placed my SG against a strat because it starts with a scale length that bears no relation to a strat's.
I hope I'm not losing you here!
It seems to me to be quite an important consideration when designing a guitar. If you like the feel of the fret spacing on a strat but want a shorter version you should choose your scale length to be based upon one of a strat's fret positions.
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Post by salteedog on Feb 14, 2018 13:23:37 GMT
If you cut the headstock off and re-attached it at the first fret then you would need to move the 'old' 13th fret slightly (actually .04 of an inch) to ensure it was exactly at the mid-point between nut and bridge. All the other frets would need to be adjusted by small amounts too. Alternatively you would move the bridge - you would need to move it back by 0.13" to give you a 22.638" scale length - which would allow you to leave the 13th fret where it is...unfortunately you would still need to minutely adjust the other frets.
Fret spacing is a function of scale-length. You place the 12th fret at exactly the mid way point and then the other frets at particular points which follow the mathematics...(unfortunately to get it entirely spot on you need fan-frets but lets not worry about that for now). Because the fret spacing function is log based (square roots etc.) it's not as straightforward as one might assume - each fret distance isn't a fixed fraction of the previous fret's distance.
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Post by salteedog on Feb 14, 2018 13:29:25 GMT
But ...says you..maybe it's close enough for rock n'roll and playing a detuned (to D#) strat with a capo in the first fret is for all intents and purposes the same as a BM Special. Correct ..albeit one where the intonation is out a tad.
And so we come full circle to recognize that electric guitar design involve intonation compromises at various parts of the fretboard - and so the non compensated tele saddles are perfectly fine for me.
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DefJef
THBC Moderator
Due to musical differences I've decided I can't work with myself any more.
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Post by DefJef on Feb 14, 2018 14:03:51 GMT
I'm not sure that things would be out by as much as you say, saltee. Of course I mean setting the take off point of the nut at the take of point of the first fret in the head removal scenario. Take my second example of cutting the headstock and reattaching it at the 12th fret - a half length guitar for the ease of understanding this. The Seymour Duncan chart shows these fret spacings: Number of frets 11. Scale length ( ) 12.75" fret from nut fret to fret 1 0.716" 0.716" (nut-1) 2 1.391" 0.675" (1-2) 3 2.029" 0.638" (2-3) 4 2.630" 0.602" (3-4) 5 3.198" 0.568" (4-5) 6 3.734" 0.536" (5-6) 7 4.240" 0.506" (6-7) 8 4.718" 0.478" (7-8) 9 5.169" 0.451" (8-9) 10 5.594" 0.425" (9-10) 11 5.996" 0.402" (10-11) Do the chart for a full length 22 fret strat and the positions from 12th fret to 22nd are exactly the same. Of course they are and that's what I mean about capos not affecting the intonation in any discernable way too. Number of frets 22. Scale length 25.5" fret from nut fret to fret 1 1.431" 1.431" (nut-1) 2 2.782" 1.351" (1-2) 3 4.057" 1.275" (2-3) 4 5.261" 1.203" (3-4) 5 6.397" 1.136" (4-5) 6 7.469" 1.072" (5-6) 7 8.481" 1.012" (6-7) 8 9.436" 0.955" (7-8) 9 10.338" 0.902" (8-9) 10 11.189" 0.851" (9-10) 11 11.992" 0.803" (10-11) 12 12.750" 0.758" (11-12) 13 13.466" 0.716" (12-13) 14 14.141" 0.675" (13-14) 15 14.779" 0.638" (14-15) 16 15.380" 0.602" (15-16) 17 15.948" 0.568" (16-17) 18 16.484" 0.536" (17-18) 19 16.990" 0.506" (18-19) 20 17.468" 0.478" (19-20) 21 17.919" 0.451" (20-21) 22 18.344" 0.425" (21-22)I am honestly not trying to duel with you, salteedog. Please don't think that. I'm not into all that kind of stuff. But I'm up for learning and am really grateful to you for engaging in this. I'm just worried that my choice of language is letting down my argument that it must be quite simple and correct to call a guitar as having a 25.5" scale length even if it only has a string vibration length of 12.75"! The fret spacings are the same. Perhaps it would be best to call it a Fender scale length? No matter how long the strings are? That's what I would tell a guitar builder if I wanted a short tele: "build me one with Fender fret spacings but not as long" rather than "can you make it with a 22 inch neck" and get him to work out some new unique fret spacings that don't suit my fingers. It's the spacings that I am interested in, not the neck length in particular. I hope you understand what I am trying to say.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2018 15:09:42 GMT
Glad to see you lads have fun! I just survived a 2 day stomach bug (puking, fever, headache, diarrhea). Went back to the Tele; strings top loaded now. It moved the intonation (saddles) towards the bridge pickup. It seems through body string length will need a bit longer scale to be intonated properly. Still the E and A saddle is on top the bridge screws. Swapped the bridge screws with flat head screws I found in my workshop. They are ugly looking but seem to hold the bridge down!
The intonation is still not 100% and that is a HUGE problem for me because I use drones when fretting over the 12th fret. Might get the TE bridge with ST style saddles instead.
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Post by salteedog on Feb 14, 2018 15:25:38 GMT
Oh..I got so into your first example that I forgot about your second (and I will admit I did agonize over this stuff sometime ago when I was trying to figure out why my kid's 3/4 scale guitar really should be tuned in A not E). So this isn't dueling but rolling around some important considerations. The funny thing about understanding is that unless it is challenged and can be defended properly then it is merely a shallow understanding. So to your second scenario... The main issue is that it's bad example. You've taken a scale length which is a straight 'harmonic'of the regular Fender length. namely 1/2. So this is a special case and not a case we should use to make any generalization at all. Even with that your guitar builder would look at you funny when you tell them you want a 25.5" scale length but with nut to bridge length of 12.75". Ultimately Scale Length is nut to bridge length - your 1/2 scale guitar may have the same fret spacing but will require string tension of 1/2 of what your regular guitar will use unless you want to always play a higher octave (in which case it's a ukelele!) However perhaps a clever guitar builder may not look at you funny when you ask him for a short tele with standard fret spacing (at the equivalent octave). He will know that 1/2 size is the only one that will fit the bill for all frets.... and gladly take your money
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