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3,457 posts
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Post by LeoThunder on Aug 30, 2018 12:04:28 GMT
I see no reason for a happy customer to go through some elaborate deception scheme to tarnish the name of a brand. I see, on the other hand, lots of room for a company that outsources the fabrication of its products to various factories on the other side of the world under cost pressure to receive output of varying quality and be itself the target of deception. We learned earlier this year that such variations and counterfeit were the reason for moving away from Wilkinson pick-ups.
The guitar in the video was said to have a very faint flame, which is confirmed on the untouched side of the body (I see no flame at all) and is nowhere near the quality of the image of a more recent one. While the "faint flame" might have been begrudgingly noted by Thomann, and maybe even acted on when switching factories, I doubt they would have dismantled the "faint" guitars to see if there was more to them. Besides, we don't know that "plastic" looking substance covering the top to be anything bad in itself.
Bottom line, though, is that while Thomann are doing their best to achieve quality, they have not been able to provide it consistently. Other examples include the "muddy" noisy pickups in the recent R-457 and R-458 Fanfret models or problems with the monorail bridges of the TE-7 and the FanFret-8NT. Someone here returned a TE-7 for not being able to set it up properly.
This is the price of low price products. This is why a cheap Squier will almost always need some sort of fret job. All Gibsons go through a Plek machine. Squiers and Harley Bentons don't. Keeping prices low implies keeping materials cheap and reducing effort, there is no way around it. We get nothing for the money we don't spend.
I also know from personal experience in a different area that replacing parts in mass products can lead to unexpected side effects. I once had a whole batch of products coming back from customers after someone in a factory on the edge of the world had approved a new part without prior testing. The part was meant to be compatible but was not and customers ended up doing the testing. The product no longer worked.
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3,457 posts
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Post by LeoThunder on Aug 30, 2018 12:17:47 GMT
I would be very grateful to know if HB's are what Thomann say they are? A video like this casts doubt into my making further purchases of HB Guitars. It's bit of a hot potato to say the least. I would just like the truth so I can have confidence in what I might purchase. There will never be such confidence at this price level. The truth is that things happen without people knowing about it. The Wilkinson incident made this clear. Thomann wanted good pick-ups, had selected good pick-ups, and still got bad ones in the guitars they were selling. They fixed the issue but could not prevent it from happening. Only a thorough validation of products on each batch could have detected this before they reached customers, which is a considerable increase in manufacturing cost, and therefore selling price.
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Post by blindwilly3fingers on Aug 30, 2018 12:37:40 GMT
I would be very grateful to know if HB's are what Thomann say they are? A video like this casts doubt into my making further purchases of HB Guitars. It's bit of a hot potato to say the least. I would just like the truth so I can have confidence in what I might purchase. There will never be such confidence at this price level. The truth is that things happen without people knowing about it. The Wilkinson incident made this clear. Thomann wanted good pick-ups, had selected good pick-ups, and still got bad ones in the guitars they were selling. They fixed the issue but could not prevent it from happening. Only a thorough validation of products on each batch could have detected this before they reached customers, which is a considerable increase in manufacturing cost, and therefore selling price. The pick up issues I can understand, fake copies are sometimes hard to detect. Pick ups can be changed. The main body of the guitar is slightly different, if it's plastic say so. Squier state the material used for the body as do Epiphone and other cheaper brands. I have not heard of them being plastic? HB's are made in the same factories as other brands I believe cort, vintage, shine etc if plastic is being used by the OEM then it is not just HB. While price is a factor it is not the be and end all. I will gladly pay whatever the cost is, I do not expect to receive plastic if I have been told I am buying wood veneer however thin it may be.
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3,457 posts
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Post by LeoThunder on Aug 30, 2018 13:08:31 GMT
There will never be such confidence at this price level. The truth is that things happen without people knowing about it. The Wilkinson incident made this clear. Thomann wanted good pick-ups, had selected good pick-ups, and still got bad ones in the guitars they were selling. They fixed the issue but could not prevent it from happening. Only a thorough validation of products on each batch could have detected this before they reached customers, which is a considerable increase in manufacturing cost, and therefore selling price. The pick up issues I can understand, fake copies are sometimes hard to detect. Pick ups can be changed. The main body of the guitar is slightly different, if it's plastic say so. Squier state the material used for the body as do Epiphone and other cheaper brands. I have not heard of them being plastic? HB's are made in the same factories as other brands I believe cort, vintage, shine etc if plastic is being used by the OEM then it is not just HB. While price is a factor it is not the be and end all. I will gladly pay whatever the cost is, I do not expect to receive plastic if I have been told I am buying wood veneer however thin it may be. We still don't know what happened there. I saw someone call "plastic" a substance he didn't know after sanding through an unspecified thickness of something else.
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Post by blindwilly3fingers on Aug 30, 2018 13:23:11 GMT
[/quote]We still don't know what happened there. I saw someone call "plastic" a substance he didn't know after sanding through an unspecified thickness of something else.[/quote]
Agreed LeoThunder, but answers are needed.
I was going to purchase a HB JA 60 OW but have been put off by the fretboard material. I also wanted to purchase a HB 550 SC Tobacco Flame but will not now be doing so.
For the price of the two above mentioned guitars I will probably buy 1 guitar from another brand.
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1,773 posts
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Post by MartinB on Aug 30, 2018 13:29:07 GMT
We still don't know what happened there. I saw someone call "plastic" a substance he didn't know after sanding through an unspecified thickness of something else.[/quote] Agreed LeoThunder, but answers are needed. I was going to purchase a HB JA 60 OW but have been put off by the fretboard material. I also wanted to purchase a HB 550 SC Tobacco Flame but will not now be doing so. For the price of the two above mentioned guitars I will probably buy 1 guitar from another brand. [/quote] Check 2nd hand on EBay, Reverb, cash converters etc... sometimes you can get great bargains... sometimes you get chancers wantING more than RRP.
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Post by blindwilly3fingers on Aug 30, 2018 13:31:34 GMT
That video is hopeless in explaining anything and I wouldn't take it as a worrying proof of anything. If the thickness of 'lacquer' is over 1mm thick and less than half of that it the colouring we could be looking at the 'primer' clear coat roughed up by sanding. All we can see is something pale and dusty. Hopefully the originator of the video has had chance to investigate further and will discover what he's actually discovered. First of all it would be a good idea to simply wipe it with a damp cloth to see what's what rather than tapping it with a finger and declaring it some sort of plastic. I take your point defjef that was my initial assumption. The manufacture process photos supplied seem only to have added mud to the water. It may well prove to be a storm in a teacup, but it has not given me any confidence in HB future purchases. I will state that my TE70BP and D120CEBK are very good.
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Post by blindwilly3fingers on Aug 30, 2018 14:00:56 GMT
I wouldn't be overly concerned by that video. I would be concerned about wrong descriptions on HB's site and over people's experience regarding the suitability of 'blackwood'. I would be concerned if Lasse had failed to provide his evidence. I have asked for clarification over the model with the non-Harley Benton headstock and a little more over when the colour is added. Beyond that it all seems pretty clear to me. I hope you are right.
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freeman
Harley Benton Club Junior Member
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Post by freeman on Aug 30, 2018 15:26:11 GMT
Hi all, so here come my 50 cents, after watching this thread for a few days. I have an SC-450 plus VB. The guitar in the video may have the new logo, but, as someone here said, it has a rounded horn. Mine is pointy. Notice the way he avoids showing the horn for too long? Also the neck-scarf joint is longer than on mine. Is that the afore mentioned tendon? The side where the neck joins the body is defined, you can clearly see the line, whereas on mine it's a smooth, almost invisible join. Also, the cavities don't look that color, pink with yellow blobs and globs of colored glue in there and....the cavities are cut straight on mine with little sharp corners and not wobbly holes like that. I know, because I've put in an Iron Gear Blues Engine in the bridge position. You can even see it clearly on McKenzies video. Just compare the cavities. That and the horn are the biggest giveaways. That guitar is not a Harley Benton SC-450 Plus LD. I don't know what it is, but it's not what that guy says it is. No need to be alarmed. It's BS. Cheers
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Post by Vincent on Aug 30, 2018 15:53:15 GMT
Lasse has said this model does not have artificial flames applied. While the photos with the unusual headstocks muddy things up a little I for one am willing to take his word. As for the video. I find it difficult to believe someone would go to such great lengths of fabrication just to show HB in a poor light. Are there fake Harley Benton guitars around? I looked on Aliexpress but found no evidence there.
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freeman
Harley Benton Club Junior Member
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Post by freeman on Aug 30, 2018 16:05:11 GMT
I think it's a Harley Benton neck on a different body. He doesn't show us the back of the guitar. His motive..... Quote Vincent: "As for the video. I find it difficult to believe someone would go to such great lengths of fabrication just to show HB in a poor light. Are there fake Harley Benton guitars around? I looked on Aliexpress but found no evidence there." I'm sorry for having to point this out, but a lack of obvious motive doesn't imply he's telling the truth. A blind man with a stick can tell, that's not a HB body.
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3,968 posts
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Post by salteedog on Aug 30, 2018 16:30:39 GMT
Honestly I don't think there is any bad motive here. There is a lack of information though and resulting confusion (and also some assumptions that may or may not be correct). I hope it'll all be cleared up in time.
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